Jump to content

Sabbath Day Observance


LDSToronto

Recommended Posts

This is the other side of the coin, isn't it? I've been called on this exact thing - once I've been observed breaking one rule, one can conclude, logically, that I should keep going (within the bounds of morality - I'm not talking about a drink of tea leading to sleeping around with married women)

I used to think that obedience was easier in the long run, but no longer. Obedience is very difficult. Sacrifice, I think, builds character, but what kind of character, that's the question.

H.

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

Link to post

One thing that hasn't been brought up is, are the employees of the "traditional Chinese restaurant" even Christian? Since the main reason for not engaging in commerce on the Sabbath is to minimize the number of people who are required to work on their Sabbath, I would think that patronizing a business that is entirely operated by Jews, Seventh-Day Adventists, Muslims, or whatever, would be acceptable. It's also not a sin to use vending machines or self-serve gas stations. OTOH, it would be breaking the spirit of the law to go to a Jewish deli from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

Link to post

I would say, in this competely hypothetical example, that yes, God would judge the two situations differently. We never covenant not to spend money on Sunday, but we do specifically covenant not to drink tea.

Hey, wait a second... I don't remember *ever* being put under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. Unless you are talking about that all encompassing baptismal covenant, in which case, I believe it also covers making covenants to 'keep his commandments', including 'keep the Sabbath holy', which according to all major prophets of our day, covers no spending money on the sabbath.

H.

Link to post

The essence of this mortal probation is choices, doing what God would do if He were present... "not my will but thine be done." If we are not required to sacrifice all things for Christ how can we expect to receive the blessings of the Kingdom of God? The real problem here is that we should not see the Gospel as a set of restrictive rules that get in the way of living happily, instead it is a means of perfecting us and giving us the means of becoming truly happy both now and in eternity.

Yup, which is why I get confused when we say things like, "The Lord didn't really mean spend *no* money, what he really meant was..."

Joseph Smith said, "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

H.

Link to post

Since the main reason for not engaging in commerce on the Sabbath is to minimize the number of people who are required to work on their Sabbath,

The "main" reason?

Says who?

Link to post

Yup, which is why I get confused when we say things like, "The Lord didn't really mean spend *no* money, what he really meant was..."

Joseph Smith said, "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation"

H.

Including the sacrifice required to obey the commandment that we keep the Sabbath holy?

Link to post

Hey, wait a second... I don't remember *ever* being put under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom. Unless you are talking about that all encompassing baptismal covenant, in which case,

Before we are baptized we are asked in an interview whether or not we will keep the WOW. If we answered yes to that question and went through with our baptism, that, to me, is a covenant.

And yes, we also covenanted to keep the sabbath day holy, but my point is that interpreting exactly what that means is much different than interpreting what it means to keep the WOW. No where did we covenant not to spend money on Sunday, for example, while we did know that keeping the WOW meant no drinking tea.

I believe it also covers making covenants to 'keep his commandments', including 'keep the Sabbath holy', which according to all major prophets of our day, covers no spending money on the sabbath.

Could you provide some of those quotes from current prophets so we could look at them?

Link to post

Could you provide some of those quotes from current prophets so we could look at them?

From Earl C. Tingey, April 1996 session of General Conference:

A very important aspect of properly observing the Sabbath concerns shopping on Sunday. Unfortunately, many commercial businesses and establishments are open on Sunday. The world sees no conflict in Sunday shopping. But we of the Church have been counseled and taught by prophets to keep ourselves
Link to post

Think carefully about temple covenants.

I have, and I'm sorry, WoW isn't explicitly covered under any of the covenants made (chastity, consecrations, sacrifice, gospel). One could make a case that it is lumped in the catch-all 'Law of the Gospel', then again, so is lying, cheating, gossiping, Sabbath observance, etc.

H.

Link to post

I have, and I'm sorry, WoW isn't explicitly covered under any of the covenants made (chastity, consecrations, sacrifice, gospel). One could make a case that it is lumped in the catch-all 'Law of the Gospel', then again, so is lying, cheating, gossiping, Sabbath observance, etc.

H.

It is indeed "lumped" into that pesky Law of the Gospel thing. I'm sure the Lord will understand, since He did not explicitly cover it. Oh wait, maybe He won't...

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Link to post

Our of curisoity, what if a person were to have made a covenant, and later is found out to not be in posession of all the faculties nessicary to keep those covenants? For example, somebody with a very high functioning Autism, or somebody who is high functioning with an intellectual disability, or some other somewhat invisable disability that a missionary or even bishop can't readily discern? Can a covenant be null and void if it turns out the person baptized(or whatever) is actually not fully accountable? How about aquired brain injury?

I think it's fair to say that there are laws and covenants, and the keeping of them is what provides us with the blessings we require to truely know God. By not keeping those commandments, we will fail to see why we need to keep them at all, and we grow distant from God as a result. However I can attest that even though there are some laws that I struggle with, God hasn't forsaken me. Yes, I still not an Elder, nor do I have a temple recommend afte 10 years, but Heavenly Father still answers my prayers and I try to keep what commandments I can. I realize that I am not a vallient LDS, but I knew when I was getting baptized that I couldn't fully keep my comittments. I only said "yes, I will give it a try".

Link to post

From Earl C. Tingey, April 1996 session of General Conference:

There are more, but you get the picture.

H.

I'm sorry, but i don't get the picture.

Obviously the church teaches that we shouldn't do those things on the Sabbath day-that was never in question.

But where does the church teach that going to a restaurant with nonmember family on the Sabbath day is breaking the Sabbath. Of all the scenerios that Pres. Hinckley listed, none of them fit this hypothesis (spending time with nonmember family members in an activity that they have chosen at a place of business).

I think it would be a big stretch to imply that when Pres. Hinckley said that there is no reason for someone to have to buy ice cream on a sunday, he also meant that there was no justifiable reason EVER to spend money on a Sunday.

I'm honestly not trying to split hairs here. I just think it's important to challenge the idea that it is always breaking the Sabbath if you spend money on that day. The church has not come out and declared such and so i don't think we need to perpetuate it.

I especially don't think we should make that declaration equal to keeping the WOW in authority.

Link to post

The Ten Commandments prohibit laboring or making others labor on our behalf, not spending money.

Ah, good. So I can purchase concert tickets on a Saturday, to attend an Aerosmith concert on a Sunday?

Wicked!

H.

Link to post

But where does the church teach that going to a restaurant with nonmember family on the Sabbath day is breaking the Sabbath. Of all the scenerios that Pres. Hinckley listed, none of them fit this hypothesis (spending time with nonmember family members in an activity that they have chosen at a place of business).

Isn't this the same as Sunday shopping, if you purchase food at a restaurant?

I think it would be a big stretch to imply that when Pres. Hinckley said that there is no reason for someone to have to buy ice cream on a sunday, he also meant that there was no justifiable reason EVER to spend money on a Sunday.

What if the Sunday tradition is to go to the ice cream parlour for ice cream? Spending time with non-member family members in an activity that just so happens to involve buying ice cream?

Is it possible that President Hinckley missed that exception, or does he believe that is a justifiable exception?

H.

Link to post

Ah, good. So I can purchase concert tickets on a Saturday, to attend an Aerosmith concert on a Sunday?

Wicked!

H.

You probably have a choice between Saturday and Sunday. Remember Jesus and the apostles recognized the Sabbath as Saturday. Our modern practice is not biblical but a later christian tradition solidified by a pagan emperor. The Emperor Constantine changed the official Roman day of rest from the Jewish sabbath to match worship day in the Roman Mystery Religions ie. Sol Invictus. The early Christian church, during the "great apostasy", recognized they were not practicing the historical sabbath observance but affirmed the change of Constantine by church authority.

Phaedrus

//If the Sabbath day can be arbitrarily chosen can't it also be arbitrarily practiced?

Link to post

It is indeed "lumped" into that pesky Law of the Gospel thing. I'm sure the Lord will understand, since He did not explicitly cover it. Oh wait, maybe He won't...

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

I think you are missing the point - I'm trying to find out why it is that some people feel it's OK to stretch some commandments but not others. Since we've determined that both the Word of Wisdom and 'keep the Sabbath day holy' are covered by covenant in the Law of the Gospel, I find it difficult to understand why some would say it's OK to stretch a sabbath day rule (no shopping) yet find no gray area in the Word of Wisdom (no tea drinking).

H.

Link to post

The Ten Commandments prohibit laboring or making others labor on our behalf, not spending money.

Wait, I got that last thing wrong - this means I can shop on Amazon.com, on Sundays, because it's completely automated - no human's labouring! Same as eBay, and any other of the hundreds of online shops that are fully automated! Shop on Sunday, get delivery on Monday.

Wooo-freaking-hoooo!

H.

Link to post

Isn't this the same as Sunday shopping, if you purchase food at a restaurant?

And isn't it technically working to glean corn from the fields on the Sabbath or to heal? The pharisees certainly thought so.

The pharisees didn't understand that it wasn't the work that was done that made the different though, but the reason behind why the work was being done, that determined whether someone was breaking the Sabbath or not.

The motivations behind the act seems to make most of the difference.

What if the Sunday tradition is to go to the ice cream parlour for ice cream? Spending time with non-member family members in an activity that just so happens to involve buying ice cream?

Still, it seems obvious to me that Pres. Hinckley was talking about people who use the excuse that 'the ox is in the mire' for justification to go to the store for nonessentials because of poor planning or boredom.

Occassionally going out with nonmember family on a sunday when not doing so would cause hard feelings doesn't fall into the same category in my opinion.

Link to post

Wait, I got that last thing wrong - this means I can shop on Amazon.com, on Sundays, because it's completely automated - no human's labouring! Same as eBay, and any other of the hundreds of online shops that are fully automated! Shop on Sunday, get delivery on Monday.

Wooo-freaking-hoooo!

H.

Sounds good to me. If you could do so and not lose your worshipping attitude and still be focused on the Savior, what would be sinful about it?

Link to post

This discussion is still not heading towards an acceptable answer. Remember that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's futile and puerile to discuss what's "OK to do on the Sabbath", or what constitutes an "exception to the rules". The point is, there are immense blessings made available to us that are not available on any other day of the week. One of the most common problems of LDS members is that we fail to recognise the gifts offered by God to them, and we gravitate towards a modern-day "Law of Moses" instead of living a celestial law.

Comparing Sabbath day observance with the WoW is also comparing apples with oranges. The WoW is designed to protect us from self-harming behaviours, both physically and spiritually. The Sabbath day is designed to rejuvenate us spiritually, to help us draw closer to God, to learn, to serve, to live a higher law without the restraints of everyday work and worldly distractions.

Asking "is it OK to go to the restaurant with my non-member in-laws on a Sunday?" is akin to asking "is this activity taking the best possible advantage of the Sabbath day, or could I use my time more effectively?". We must always be guided by the Spirit in making Sabbath-day choices. I don't believe, however, that breaking the WoW is ever the "best" possible choice, and I wouldn't even bother asking the Lord whether I should do it unless I felt a distinct and unmistakable prompting to do so (such as Nephi's prompting to kill Laban).

Link to post

You probably have a choice between Saturday and Sunday. Remember Jesus and the apostles recognized the Sabbath as Saturday. Our modern practice is not biblical but a later christian tradition solidified by a pagan emperor. The Emperor Constantine changed the official Roman day of rest from the Jewish sabbath to match worship day in the Roman Mystery Religions ie. Sol Invictus. The early Christian church, during the "great apostasy", recognized they were not practicing the historical sabbath observance but affirmed the change of Constantine by church authority.

Phaedrus

//If the Sabbath day can be arbitrarily chosen can't it also be arbitrarily practiced?

This is irrelevant. Modern-day prophets have declared Sunday as the Sabbath day, so that is what we now follow. The importance is not which day of the week is hallowed, but that one is hallowed per week, and that day is the same for all members of the Church. Again you may try to justify doing worldly things on the Sabbath, "arbitrarily practicing it", but you would only be cheating yourself our of immense blessings. Isaiah 58 explains some of these blessings.

Link to post

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...