Is the LDS Church really led by prophets?

[Vance]

From http://www.inplainsite.org/html/apocrypha.html

Test of Propheticity.

One of the tests of whether writing was seen as inspired or not was propheticity. God determined which books would be in the Bible by giving their message to a prophet. Only books written by a prophet or accredited spokesperson for God belong in the canon. The people to whom the prophet wrote knew which of the prophets fulfilled the requirements for god

[Chronos]

Lay off personal attacks against, next one will be banned from the thread.

~Chronos

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Congratulations! You have presented some very good evidence to support viewing Joshua as a prophet. I appreciate your making the effort to engage the question in this way.

[Ahab]

Ahab,

You wrote:

So, some guy not using his real name (I assume!) on an Internet forum calls Joshua a prophet, and that makes him one?

No, but someone who calls him a prophet because he knows he is one is telling the truth, whether you know it or not.

You wrote:

Perhaps you misunderstood. I simply asked for references supporting the identification of Joshua as a prophet. "Ahab says so" wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

I say so because God has told me that he was, and that's the same standard I use to determine when anyone is a prophet of God.

You wrote:

This forum apparently labels anyone with a certain number of posts a "pundit." It doesn't mean anything else, so far as I know.

I'm sure there's more to it than simply having a certain number of posts, and I base that on the fact that many other posters have more posts than you do and the Moderators have not labelled them as a Pundit.

I have no idea who wrote the book of Joshua. The best guess is that it was written sometime between the days of Samuel and Solomon, and it's really difficult to be more precise than that. It may have been edited centuries later into the more-or-less continuous narrative that we have in the books Joshua through 2 Kings. For a judicious introductory discussion of the issue, see, for example, Andrew E. Hill and John H. Walton, A Survey of the Old Testament, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000).

Well, the way I see it, if Joshua wasn't the one who actually wrote the book called by his name, then it was either his scribes or some other people who had a good knowledge of what Joshua thought and experienced in his own life, including his thoughts and experiences that were inspired and influenced by God, to the point that what is written in that book is pretty much in agreement with what Joshua would tell me, himself.

[Rob Bowman]

Ahab,

You wrote:

I say so because God has told me that he was, and that's the same standard I use to determine when anyone is a prophet of God.

So, you know he's a prophet because you're a prophet, right? Would you agree, at least, that I am not supposed to take your word for it? You see, God hasn't told me who is or is not a prophet, except insofar as God tells me whatever the Bible, which is his word, says.

You wrote:

I'm sure there's more to it than simply having a certain number of posts, and I base that on the fact that many other posters have more posts than you do and the Moderators have not labelled them as a Pundit.

You may be right. I don't pay any attention to those labels.

You wrote:

Well, the way I see it, if Joshua wasn't the one who actually wrote the book called by his name, then it was either his scribes or some other people who had a good knowledge of what Joshua thought and experienced in his own life, including his thoughts and experiences that were inspired and influenced by God, to the point that what is written in that book is pretty much in agreement with what Joshua would tell me, himself.

I don't question the reliability of the book of Joshua, and I assume it is at least based on reliable information that came from the time of Joshua. But the internal evidence strongly points to a date of some centuries later for the actual composition of the book.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Vance,

Congratulations! You have presented some very good evidence to support viewing Joshua as a prophet. I appreciate your making the effort to engage the question in this way.

I was going to suggest a few pages back, that you not thinking Joshua a prophet should not really be the focus of this thread. I thought it had no relvance really to most of what you posted.

[Ahab]

Ahab,

So, you know he's a prophet because you're a prophet, right?

Yes. Accepting the testimony of Jesus Christ is pretty much all it takes to label someone as a prophet.

Would you agree, at least, that I am not supposed to take your word for it? You see, God hasn't told me who is or is not a prophet, except insofar as God tells me whatever the Bible, which is his word, says.

I'll excuse you from not accepting my word for it, but you're on the hook for having heard it now and you can no longer claim ignorance as if nobody had ever told you.

Which pretty much amounts to this kind of scenario if it were important enough for God to bring up on the day of your final judgment:

God: Rob, Ahab told you that I told him that Joshua was a prophet of mine. Do you remember that moment, and did you benefit from what he told you?

Rob: Well, yeah, I remember, but I didn't believe Ahab because that was just Ahab, and not you, my only God, so I considered Ahab's testimony about Joshua and you to be of no benefit to me, personally.

God: Well, would it have made any difference to you if you had known that I had told Ahab that Joshua was one of my prophets? Ahab did tell you that what he said was what I had told him. Why didn't you ask me to confirm that what Ahab told you was true?

Rob: Well, hmm. Was I supposed to? Sheesh, if I had asked you about everything everyone had ever told me, wouldn't that have been a really big waste of both your time, and also my time? I just figured that if you ever had anything really important to tell me, that you would have told me, personally.

God: Rob. I did tell you, personally, even though you didn't realize it was me who was speaking to you. Whether what I say comes from me or from any of my servants, the information itself amounts to pretty much the same thing, and all you ever had to do was talk to me about everything you ever thought of to find out what I thought about it.

Rob. Oh. Well, okay. Now I know. So what's next? Can we start from scratch, right now?

God: Sure, come on over here. I have a place picked out for you that I'm sure you'll enjoy, based on what I know you really like.

You wrote:

You may be right. I don't pay any attention to those labels.

Now you know.

You wrote:

I don't question the reliability of the book of Joshua, and I assume it is at least based on reliable information that came from the time of Joshua. But the internal evidence strongly points to a date of some centuries later for the actual composition of the book.

I'll tell you what. Why don't you ask God and see what he has to say about it, as well as about everything else you ever think of.

[TAO]

TAO,

You wrote:

That chapter in Gospel Principles offers no evidence that Monson is a prophet. However, I have already read it, and I replied in an online article entitled Prophets Old and New.

Your turn to do some reading!

I did some reading.... but I found that some of your evidences have already been countered in other threads. Thus, they really don't go anywhere.

Actually, it does provide evidence. Example:

[TAO]

I take it those are examples of scriptures that are not canonized. I understand that LDS doctrine recognizes the second category as "scripture" in some sense, but I don't think that is the case with the first and third categories. If the third category counts as "scripture," then in that sense evangelicals believe in continuing and new scriptures, because we believe in the prompting of the Spirit.

I'll agree with the third - it is not scripture, but it is still importance. However, the first IS recognized as scripture personally for you. As revelation personally for you. Patriarchal Blessings should be treated as scripture and revelation specific to a person. I can get you a link to a quote by one of the apostles if you would like.

So, can you give me a specific example of words of a prophet that are scripture but not canonized? How about something from the current prophet? And do you have any examples of canonized material that is not scripture?

Your use of scripture and canonization is unclear. Let's just put it this way.

There are things in the Bible which have been added and changed, and as of such, may not be correct. In the sense, they may be in the KJV, but they would not be the will of God, because men changed them.

There are revelations and things which God wishes for men to know, which are not contained in the scriptures, and are revealed through promptings of the spirit, prophets, patriarchal blessings, etc.

[Bernard Gui]

Protestant clergymen don't claim to be prophets or apostles. They don't claim that if you aren't baptized in their sect then you haven't been validly baptized. They don't claim that they are the appointed leaders of the church worldwide. They don't make any claims about themselves; they simply seek to minister to people with the love of Christ and the truth of God's word in the Bible as best they know and can.

I did not say they claim to be prophets or apostles. But they do claim the authority to baptize. Prove they have that authority. They don't claim

they are the appointed leaders of the church worldwide, but they do make claims of authority in their sect or congregation. Prove that

authority came from God.

Yet they claim to be called by God to the ministry, no? They are ordained to the ministry, no? Prove that they are called by God to be pastors,

reverends, bishops, evangelists, priests, whatever.

Can you show in the Bible any semblance of a Doctorate of Divinity conferred on any New Testament church leader...apostle,

prophet, disciple? Where in the bible does Paul recommend to Timothy that he go get a bible college degree so he can become a pastor?

Which divinity school did Peter attend? Barnabas? Ananias? Judas Barsabbas and Silas? Polycarp? Ignatius?

I also make no special claims for myself. I don't present myself as someone indispensable to the people of God. I don't ask anyone to believe anything about me. Since I make no special claims about myself, I have nothing to prove about myself.

That wasn't my question. My question was, prove that you have been called by God to do what you are doing.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Your use of scripture and canonization is unclear. Let's just put it this way.

This is canonized scripture, but is it the Word of God?

Do your utmost to help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their travels, and see

that they are not short of anything. And our own people must be taught to

engage in honest employment to produce the necessities of life; they must

not be unproductive. (Titus 3:13-14)

Seems to me to be just the platitudinous advice of a wise man to some members of the Church.

Nothing prophetic here, but I could be wrong.

Bernard

[Rob Bowman]

Wow, I see I just reached 1000 posts!

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

You're right, of course.

I was going to suggest a few pages back, that you not thinking Joshua a prophet should not really be the focus of this thread. I thought it had no relvance really to most of what you posted.

[Rob Bowman]

Ahab,

In the light of Isaiah 43:10, if you tell me that someone was or became a God before Jehovah became a God, do I need to ask God if this is true or not?

If the Bible plainly teaches one thing, and Ahab tells me another, must I run to God and ask him if Ahab is right and the Bible is wrong?

Tell me: Did you pray to God and ask him sincerely to reveal to you whether I might be right about anything I said in this thread? How did that go?

Fortunately, my salvation does not depend on getting right the ministry office of the Joshua of the Old Testament, but on getting right with God through the redemptive ministry of the Joshua (Jesus) of the New Testament.

Finally, I asked God long ago to give me the wisdom to discern if Mormonism is true or not. I believe God answered that prayer.

[Rob Bowman]

TAO,

You wrote:

I did some reading.... but I found that some of your evidences have already been countered in other threads. Thus, they really don't go anywhere.

Not much of a rebuttal. "There's an answer for this somewhere."

You wrote:

And this is by Wilford Woodruff, a man known to be a prophet, and have revelations.

Woodruff -- known to be a prophet? A false prophet, perhaps. I discussed Woodruff's statement, which you quoted, in my article. The context of that statement is very telling.

[Nathair/|\]

Wow, I see I just reached 1000 posts!

A bigger achievement is that the vast majority of those are substantial contributions to the discussion. For what it's worth, (probably very little coming from someone like me) though I often disagree with you, I value your perspective and participation here. As far as I can tell, you seem to be making an honest effort toward understanding, respectful dialogue and fair and reasonable criticism even when some of our own don't live up to ourselves.

Thank you,

Yours under the appreciative oaks,

Nathair /|\

[MatthewG]

Anybody else feel this has gone beyond long enough? Every question has been answered and explained only to have this guy deny the sky is blue. He is not here to learn, he is here to argue endlessly.

You're wasting valuable brain cells.

[zerinus]

Ahab,

In the light of Isaiah 43:10, if you tell me that someone was or became a God before Jehovah became a God, do I need to ask God if this is true or not?

If the Bible plainly teaches one thing, and Ahab tells me another, must I run to God and ask him if Ahab is right and the Bible is wrong?

Tell me: Did you pray to God and ask him sincerely to reveal to you whether I might be right about anything I said in this thread? How did that go?

Fortunately, my salvation does not depend on getting right the ministry office of the Joshua of the Old Testament, but on getting right with God through the redemptive ministry of the Joshua (Jesus) of the New Testament.

Finally, I asked God long ago to give me the wisdom to discern if Mormonism is true or not. I believe God answered that prayer.

In the days of Jeremiah there was a false prophet called Hananiah who contradicted everything that Jeremiah said. He came to an unhappy end. You can read his story in Jeremiah 28. You sound a lot like him!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

He had scribes which wrote for him, too, as well as having God help him (and them) know what to write, so it's not as if Moses wrote all of those 5 books all by himself.

Translated is the more proper term, since it was more than only a brief period of transfiguration, like the 3 Apostles who were also transfigured but only for a short time.

Thanks

[zerinus]

Thanks

[cdowis]

I was told that Joshua was a prophet, and I issued a CFR. That means the burden of proof was on those who sought to meet that CFR. Most of those who responded did so by expressing incredulity that I would even ask the question. I was denounced as blind to the truth, accused of denying OT prophets, and generally lambasted for my question -- while very little if any evidence was offered in response to the CFR.

The point is that you asked us to give evidence that Pres. Monson is a prophet, but we cannot even agree on whether Joshua was a prophet (although you seem to have conceded that point).

The fact is that the Bible never refers to Joshua as a prophet.

OK, and the Bible does not tell us that JS was a prophet. The decision has already been made, so this whole thread is based on a rhetorical question, because JS received the priesthood from Peter, James and John, and Pres. Monson received those keys through the authorized line of authority.

The real issue is whether JS was a prophet.

If you cannot accept anyone outside the Bible as a prophet (and even those in the Bible itself), your question is disingenous.

[Vance]

I was going to suggest a few pages back, that you not thinking Joshua a prophet should not really be the focus of this thread. I thought it had no relvance really to most of what you posted.

It is a red herring. A distraction from the fact that Rob's OP argument has been totally destroyed.

[zerinus]

The point is that you asked us to give evidence that Pres. Monson is a prophet, but we cannot even agree on whether Joshua was a prophet (although you seem to have conceded that point).

Actually what he says there isn't true. There is plenty of biblical evidence that Joshua was a prophet, which has been shown to him but he turns a blind eye to them.

OK, and the Bible does not tell us that JS was a prophet, so you cannot accept any evidence that he was a prophet. The decision has already been made, so this whole thread is based on a rhetorical question.

That is a valid point; except that by his standard Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would not qualify as prophets either, who in Jewish as well as his own Christian tradition are considered to be such.

[Deborah]

Here is the evidence for modern, living prophets in the LDS Church.

1. The fact that we have Prophets and Apostles called by God as they were called in the NT, and no one else claims such.

2. The fact that we have a record of the restoration of the Priesthood and can trace the line of authority from that.

3. The fact that many inspiring and prophetic pronouncements have come from our latter-day prophets; those who have ears to hear know what these are and those who don't will continue to deny what is right in front of them.

4. The fact that the Holy Ghost has testified that these things are true. When Pres. Monson was sustained as prophet I knew without a doubt that he was indeed now the prophet.

[cdowis]

Here is the evidence for modern, living prophets in the LDS Church.

1. The fact that we have Prophets and Apostles called by God as they were called in the NT, and no one else claims such.

Except for the New Apostolic Church.

2. The fact that we have a record of the restoration of the Priesthood and can trace the line of authority from that.

The Catholics trace their priesthood lineage back to Peter.

3. The fact that many inspiring and prophetic pronouncements have come from our latter-day prophets; those who have ears to hear know what these are and those who don't will continue to deny what is right in front of them.

What about the Pope, is he chopped liver?

4. The fact that the Holy Ghost has testified that these things are true. When Pres. Monson was sustained as prophet I knew without a doubt that he was indeed now the prophet.