The Book of Mormon is not a history book

[cdowis]

The fatal problem with claims of historicity for the Book of Mormon, as it relates to Mesoamerica, is that we have an authentic contemporary written history for the place and time period involved. In Joseph Smith's time the Mayan and Olmec languages could not be translated or understood. Now they can. We have a fairly complete written record of what was going in Mesoamerica during the period covered by the Book of Mormon, and there is no resemblance whatsoever between the authentic written record and the Book of Mormon narrative - none.

(emphasis mine)

This is a formal CFR request.

Your entire post is full of utter nonsense, but we will examine it one assertion at a time.

[Daniel Peterson]

They bother, partly, because your description of the state of our knowledge of the history of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica isn't true.

[44Foxtrot]

(emphasis mine)

This is a formal CFR request.

Your entire post is full of utter nonsense, but we will examine it one assertion at a time.

No problem.

Before I head to my files on the subject, I would ask you to agree that once I have shown you the data, you will not simply claim that the Eastern US/Canada could also be the location for the main events in the BoM, and that the data I present proves nothing.

And you must also agree that to successfully refute my stated position, you will need to present more physical evidence for your position than I have for mine. That is, you will need to show that H2 is the best hypothesis based on weight of evidence.

Do you agree to both conditions?

[44Foxtrot]

They bother, partly, because your description of the state of our knowledge of the history of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica isn't true.

DCP,

The "why bother" comment was with respect to the apologist's idea that finding wadis with flowing water along the southern Omani (or UAE or Yemeni) coastline somehow shows that the Old World portion of the BoM narrative had been validated. This is a ridiculous assertion.

There is fresh water at higher elevations that can form oasis and / or drain through the wadis into the sea all along the coast from the UAE through Oman and into Yemen. In fact, in typical apologist fashion, it now appears that we have "dueling Bountiful" locations.

Here would be my pick. Along the coast of Yemen there is an area that extends from the hills down to the sea that looks for all the world like the terrain along the north end of the Sea of Galilee in Israel. Because of marine weather patterns and onshore flow, this place has sufficient rainfall and is very pleasant and productive. Perhaps the apologists should have headed on down the coast before they made their call. If you have traveled in the region, you should know this area.

[Gervin]

The BOM is not a history book, but it is authentic history.

... in book form

[Daniel Peterson]

The "why bother" comment was with respect to the apologist's idea that finding wadis with flowing water along the southern Omani (or UAE or Yemeni) coastline somehow shows that the Old World portion of the BoM narrative had been validated. This is a ridiculous assertion.

No, that is a simplistic caricature of the position.

[44Foxtrot]

This is a formal CFR request.

Your entire post is full of utter nonsense, but we will examine it one assertion at a time.

cdowis,

In response to your CFR request, I suggested a couple of ground rules for a discussion. I have not heard back for several hours, and since I am on the East Coast and it is late now so, I will start as you suggest, one point at a time.

The first point I will address is related to language. I claimed that at least two major New World languages contemporary in time and place with the Mesoamerican version of the Book of Mormon. Both Olmec (2000 BC - 400 AD), and Mayan (500 BC - 1200 AD), of which we have countless examples, can now be understood and dictionaries for both languages are available.

For references regarding Olmec, please see A Decipherment of Epi-Olmec Hieroglyphic Writing, by J.S. Justeson and T Kaufman Science 1993, and for Mayan, please see Breaking the Mayan Code by Michale D. Cole.

So we do understand the contemporary languages and from these writings and other archeological evidence, we understand a lot about the religions of the area, and they are not as described in the BoM. The Mayans worshiped nature gods (sun, rain, and corn gods for example) and practiced human sacrifice, none of which are mentioned in the BoM. The Mayan creation myths have humans who can talk being made by Itzam Na from water and maize. Again, no such stories or beliefs in the Book of Mormon.

Regarding written language in the Mesoamerican BoM narrative, the faithful Mormon is asked to believe that Reformed Egyptian was used for writing. While we have many examples of Olmec and Mayan glyphs in many different media spanning more than 1000 years, we have no examples whatsoever of Reformed Egyptian from Mesoamerica.

The example we do have is from a scrap of paper upon which Joseph Smith copied characters in "reformed Egyptian" for the benefit of Prof. Anthon. As has been shown on thsi board already, these characters bear a very close resemblance (can be mapped one to one and are essentially identical) to Tironian Notes script used by Catholic priests in Ireland.

No examples of Reformed Egyptian have ever been found in Mesoamerica. No credible professional linguist who is not LDS even believes that such a language ever existed.

If you are willing to agree to the two conditions suggested above, we can move on to geology or perhaps technology.

[morgan.deane]

cdowis,

In response to your CFR request, I suggested a couple of ground rules for a discussion. I have not heard back for several hours, and since I am on the East Coast and it is late now so, I will start as you suggest, one point at a time.

The first point I will address is related to language. I claimed that at least two major New World languages contemporary in time and place with the Mesoamerican version of the Book of Mormon. Both Olmec (2000 BC - 400 AD), and Mayan (500 BC - 1200 AD), of which we have countless examples, can now be understood and dictionaries for both languages are available.

For references regarding Olmec, please see A Decipherment of Epi-Olmec Hieroglyphic Writing, by J.S. Justeson and T Kaufman Science 1993, and for Mayan, please see Breaking the Mayan Code by Michale D. Cole.

So we do understand the contemporary languages and from these writings and other archeological evidence, we understand a lot about the religions of the area, and they are not as described in the BoM. The Mayans worshiped nature gods (sun, rain, and corn gods for example) and practiced human sacrifice, none of which are mentioned in the BoM. The Mayan creation myths have humans who can talk being made by Itzam Na from water and maize. Again, no such stories or beliefs in the Book of Mormon.

Regarding written language in the Mesoamerican BoM narrative, the faithful Mormon is asked to believe that Reformed Egyptian was used for writing. While we have many examples of Olmec and Mayan glyphs in many different media spanning more than 1000 years, we have no examples whatsoever of Reformed Egyptian from Mesoamerica.

The example we do have is from a scrap of paper upon which Joseph Smith copied characters in "reformed Egyptian" for the benefit of Prof. Anthon. As has been shown on thsi board already, these characters bear a very close resemblance (can be mapped one to one and are essentially identical) to Tironian Notes script used by Catholic priests in Ireland.

No examples of Reformed Egyptian have ever been found in Mesoamerica. No credible professional linguist who is not LDS even believes that such a language ever existed.

If you are willing to agree to the two conditions suggested above, we can move on to geology or perhaps technology.

I stopped reading after you claimed there are no human sacrifices discussed in the BoM. I think you need to read it again (or most likely for the first time).

[cdowis]

No problem.

Before I head to my files on the subject, I would ask you to agree that once I have shown you the data, you will not simply claim that the Eastern US/Canada could also be the location for the main events in the BoM, and that the data I present proves nothing.

And you must also agree that to successfully refute my stated position, you will need to present more physical evidence for your position than I have for mine. That is, you will need to show that H2 is the best hypothesis based on weight of evidence.

Do you agree to both conditions?

This is a second request for CFR. You made the claim and it is your burden to document your assertion.

[cdowis]

cdowis,

In response to your CFR request, I suggested a couple of ground rules for a discussion. I have not heard back for several hours, and since I am on the East Coast and it is late now so, I will start as you suggest, one point at a time.

The first point I will address is related to language. I claimed that at least two major New World languages contemporary in time and place with the Mesoamerican version of the Book of Mormon. Both Olmec (2000 BC - 400 AD), and Mayan (500 BC - 1200 AD), of which we have countless examples, can now be understood and dictionaries for both languages are available.

For references regarding Olmec, please see A Decipherment of Epi-Olmec Hieroglyphic Writing, by J.S. Justeson and T Kaufman Science 1993, and for Mayan, please see Breaking the Mayan Code by Michale D. Cole.

So we do understand the contemporary languages and from these writings and other archeological evidence, we understand a lot about the religions of the area, and they are not as described in the BoM. The Mayans worshiped nature gods (sun, rain, and corn gods for example) and practiced human sacrifice, none of which are mentioned in the BoM. The Mayan creation myths have humans who can talk being made by Itzam Na from water and maize. Again, no such stories or beliefs in the Book of Mormon.

Regarding written language in the Mesoamerican BoM narrative, the faithful Mormon is asked to believe that Reformed Egyptian was used for writing. While we have many examples of Olmec and Mayan glyphs in many different media spanning more than 1000 years, we have no examples whatsoever of Reformed Egyptian from Mesoamerica.

The example we do have is from a scrap of paper upon which Joseph Smith copied characters in "reformed Egyptian" for the benefit of Prof. Anthon. As has been shown on thsi board already, these characters bear a very close resemblance (can be mapped one to one and are essentially identical) to Tironian Notes script used by Catholic priests in Ireland.

No examples of Reformed Egyptian have ever been found in Mesoamerica. No credible professional linguist who is not LDS even believes that such a language ever existed.

If you are willing to agree to the two conditions suggested above, we can move on to geology or perhaps technology.

This is the THIRD REQUEST for CFR. You made an assertion and it is your burden to document that assertion.

And I also live on the East Coast, so I know what time it is.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

OP totally taken out of context.

By the same admission, the Bible is not a history or scientific book, it is the Word of God, that teaches correct principles. The Book of Mormon shares that claim.

In No Way did Elder Nelson say that the Book of Mormon is not historically accurate.

Looking at the cultures of Central and South America with their respective degenericies as well as the old ruins kind of destroys your claims areartes.

[44Foxtrot]

This is the THIRD REQUEST for CFR. You made an assertion and it is your burden to document that assertion.

And I also live on the East Coast, so I know what time it is.

cdowis,

You asked for a CFR regarding my claim that the Olmec and Mayan (glyph) languages had been deciphered and could be now be read and understood and that from the information gained by their decipherment we now have a history of Mesoamerica from roughly 2000 BC to roughly 400 AD.

In Post 47 on this thread, in response to your request, I showed the two main Mesoamerican languages of the time (Olmec and Mayan) could now be read and that the information gained on the culture religion and customs of the people known to live there during that time period are not as described in the Book of Mormon.

You said that you wished to address these claims point by point. I provided you references to the literature showing that both Olmec and Mayan languages can now be read and understood and that the religion and culture they relate bear no resemblance to what is contained in the Book of Mormon. I also pointed out that no example of Joseph Smith's "Reformed Egyptian", has ever been found in Mesoamerica.

This is certainly a response, with references, to your CFR. I then asked which point you would like to cover next, and suggested technology or geology. If you want more detail on the history of the Mesoamerican cultures here is a short timeline.

Hunter gatherer populations first entered the region around 11,000 BC.

Mayan civilization is established as such between about 2500 BC and 2000 BC

The Mayan creation myth according to the long count calendar claims that the creation of the world occured in 3113 BC.

Solar calendars carved in stone appear around 400 BC.

By about 300 BC the Mayans had develop hierarchical society structure ruled by kings and nobles.

The city of Teotihuacan was founded around 100 BC and served for several centuries as the religious and trading center of Mesoamerica.

The Mayan City of Cerros was built around 50 BC with a temple complex and ball courts. It was later abandoned.

By 500 AD the Mayan City of Tikal attracts people from Teotihuacan to become the dominant city. New rituals and culture are seen in Tikal including human sacrifice.

By 600 AD Tikal is the largest city in Mesoamerica, with a population of more than 500,000.

In 683 AD, the Emperor Pacal dies at the age of 80.

This timeline covering the Mesoamerican culture and history from about 11,000 BC to precisely 683 AD has been developed by scientists working in the area of archeology, linguistics, ethnography, etc.

According to the Book of Mormon [Mormon Ch. 8]

6 Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior. 7 And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their ^afall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

9 And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and ^arobbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

So by 400 AD the BoM has nothing but Lamanites and robbers existing upon the face of the land. All the Nephites, save one, have been killed.

Yet the Mayan written and archeological record shows that Teotihuacan and Tikal were thriving cities at that time. The Mayan record shows that their religion was not some version of Jewish monotheism, but that they worshiped a pantheon of natural gods. Principal in their pantheon by this time were the jaguar gods. (Karl Taube, The Major Gods of Ancient Yucatan. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks, 1992).

No mention of Jehovah or Jesus Christ in the contemporary Mayan record.

No mention of jaguar gods in the Book of Mormon.

[44Foxtrot]

I stopped reading after you claimed there are no human sacrifices discussed in the BoM. I think you need to read it again (or most likely for the first time).

I have read the Book of Mormon, in both Seminary and Institute. And I would be very interested if you could show me where ritualized, institutionalized human sacrifice, practiced as an ongoing expression of religious belief as was the case in Mesoamerican cultures, is described in the Book of Mormon. Because if it is there, I missed it, several times.

Thanks.

[cdowis]

cdowis,

You asked for a CFR regarding my claim that the Olmec and Mayan (glyph) languages had been deciphered and could be now be read and understood and that from the information gained by their decipherment we now have a history of Mesoamerica from roughly 2000 BC to roughly 400 AD.

In Post 47 on this thread, in response to your request, I showed the two main Mesoamerican languages of the time (Olmec and Mayan) could now be read and that the information gained on the culture religion and customs of the people known to live there during that time period are not as described in the Book of Mormon.

You said that you wished to address these claims point by point. I provided you references to the literature showing that both Olmec and Mayan languages can now be read and understood and that the religion and culture they relate bear no resemblance to what is contained in the Book of Mormon. I also pointed out that no example of Joseph Smith's "Reformed Egyptian", has ever been found in Mesoamerica.

This is certainly a response, with references, to your CFR. I then asked which point you would like to cover next, and suggested technology or geology. If you want more detail on the history of the Mesoamerican cultures here is a short timeline.

Hunter gatherer populations first entered the region around 11,000 BC.

Mayan civilization is established as such between about 2500 BC and 2000 BC

The Mayan creation myth according to the long count calendar claims that the creation of the world occured in 3113 BC.

Solar calendars carved in stone appear around 400 BC.

By about 300 BC the Mayans had develop hierarchical society structure ruled by kings and nobles.

The city of Teotihuacan was founded around 100 BC and served for several centuries as the religious and trading center of Mesoamerica.

The Mayan City of Cerros was built around 50 BC with a temple complex and ball courts. It was later abandoned.

By 500 AD the Mayan City of Tikal attracts people from Teotihuacan to become the dominant city. New rituals and culture are seen in Tikal including human sacrifice.

By 600 AD Tikal is the largest city in Mesoamerica, with a population of more than 500,000.

In 683 AD, the Emperor Pacal dies at the age of 80.

This timeline covering the Mesoamerican culture and history from about 11,000 BC to precisely 683 AD has been developed by scientists working in the area of archeology, linguistics, ethnography, etc.

According to the Book of Mormon [Mormon Ch. 8]

6 Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior. 7 And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their ^afall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

9 And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and ^arobbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

So by 400 AD the BoM has nothing but Lamanites and robbers existing upon the face of the land. All the Nephites, save one, have been killed.

Yet the Mayan written and archeological record shows that Teotihuacan and Tikal were thriving cities at that time. The Mayan record shows that their religion was not some version of Jewish monotheism, but that they worshiped a pantheon of natural gods. Principal in their pantheon by this time were the jaguar gods. (Karl Taube, The Major Gods of Ancient Yucatan. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks, 1992).

No mention of Jehovah or Jesus Christ in the contemporary Mayan record.

No mention of jaguar gods in the Book of Mormon.

To see what I actually said, please read post 51. Once again you have proven it is a waste of time to try to engage you in a conversation.

This is the fourth request for CFR. I have now reported your noncompliance to the moderators. I have put you on ignore until you respond.

[sansfoy]

To see what I actually said, please read post 51. Once again you have proven it is a waste of time to try to engage you in a conversation.

This is the fourth request for CFR. I have now reported your noncompliance to the moderators. I have put you on ignore until you respond.

cdowis, is your complaint his assertion that we have a fairly complete history of Mesoamerican cultures? I agree with you that the history is spotty at this time. However, the rest of his post seems accurate to me. At this point, it doesn't seem that the Book of Mormon civilization or its artifacts have been found in Mesoamerica.

[44Foxtrot]

To see what I actually said, please read post 51. Once again you have proven it is a waste of time to try to engage you in a conversation.

This is the fourth request for CFR. I have now reported your noncompliance to the moderators. I have put you on ignore until you respond.

cdowis

I have responded to your CFR twice now, once in post 57 and again in post 62.

Both times I provided references to the literature for my assertions.

It would appear that the one who does not wish to engage is you.

[cdowis]

cdowis, is your complaint his assertion that we have a fairly complete history of Mesoamerican cultures? I agree with you that the history is spotty at this time. However, the rest of his post seems accurate to me. At this point, it doesn't seem that the Book of Mormon civilization or its artifacts have been found in Mesoamerica.

One of the most authorative references is "A Forest of Kings" by David Freidel, Linda Schele. Don't have the exact text at hand, but they tell us that is virtually no written records are extant from the pre-classic (BOM) time period, so we know little about that time period.

The Catholic priests did a through job of destroying almost all of those records.

Regarding artifacts, we find artifacts all over the place, but it is a matter of identification. How do you identify a jade necklace, for example, or even an entire city, as Nephite or something else. I would suggest that we have plenty of BOM artifacts, but we have no way of identifying them. So artifacts is a moot issue until we resolve that issue.

Finally, the BOM makes it clear that we cannot expect to find the Hebrew language among the Nephites. They changed the Hebrew, and their language was unknown to any other people. The BOM makes it clear that we should not be looking for Hebrews in mesoamerica, but Nephites and Lamanites.

[44Foxtrot]

One of the most authorative references is "A Forest of Kings" by David Freidel, Linda Schele. Don't have the exact text at hand, but they tell us that is virtually no written records are extant from the pre-classic (BOM) time period, so we know little about that time period.

The Catholic priests did a through job of destroying almost all of those records.

Regarding artifacts, we find artifacts all over the place, but it is a matter of identification. How do you identify a jade necklace, for example, or even an entire city, as Nephite or something else. I would suggest that we have plenty of BOM artifacts, but we have no way of identifying them. So artifacts is a moot issue until we resolve that issue.

Finally, the BOM makes it clear that we cannot expect to find the Hebrew language among the Nephites. They changed the Hebrew, and their language was unknown to any other people. The BOM makes it clear that we should not be looking for Hebrews in mesoamerica, but Nephites and Lamanites.

cdowis,

As to characteristics of the Nephites and Lamanites mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, some of the things we should find evidence for in Mesoamerica from between approximately 2,500 BC to approximately 600 AD include, "reformed Egyptian writing, horses, elephants, iron, steel, transparent window materials (glass?), silk, cattle, pigs, wheat and barley among others.

Yet there is no mention or evidence in the glyphs or carvings or art of contemporary Mesoamerica, or indeed in the relevant archeological record, for any of these plants, animals, or artifacts, many of which were central to the lives and culture of the Nephites and Lamanites as described in the Book of Mormon.

If you choose personally to hold out for "more knowledge" regarding this matter, that is your right. However, after more than a century of research and consideration of the evidence, and after decades of being able to understand the written languages of Mesoamerica, the scientific community has made it's call.

As early as 1979, and including a letter in 1998, a series of letters and written statements from the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society have repeatedly and unequivocally stated that there is no evidence for a connection between the New World archeology and Book of Mormon subject matter or narrative.

In other words, according to the Simthsonian and National Geographic Society, the two scientific institutions most involved in the relevant research, there is no credible evidence whatsoever for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica.

ETA: Faithful Mormons like to point to the fact that the Spanish destroyed much of the written record of the indigenous civilizations they found in Mesoamerica. They can then claim that "we just do not know" when it comes to BoM archeology in Mesoamerica.

However, at least 4 major codices survived. And along with the stone and wood carvings, buildings and the archeological record from the period in question, the scientific community has gathered sufficient evidence to make its call on the historicity of the BoM as it relates to Mesoamerica. Several times.

[morgan.deane]

I have read the Book of Mormon, in both Seminary and Institute. And I would be very interested if you could show me where ritualized, institutionalized human sacrifice, practiced as an ongoing expression of religious belief as was the case in Mesoamerican cultures, is described in the Book of Mormon. Because if it is there, I missed it, several times.

Thanks.

Try Moroni 9. I rarely use this word because its usually reserved for pedantic individuals, but when reading the BoM and any ancient text for that matter, a good bit of nuance is needed. This is something an average seminary student will not have. But if you want to bring up all of your supposedly disqualifying academic evidence, you shouldn't compare it to your non academic reading and understanding of the BoM, but should instead look at how the scholarly community interprets BOM text, or better yet, reread and more closely examine the text. Judging from your posts here it appears the former is the case.

[Hestia]

When a CFR is called for it needs to be answered per board rules: If you are asked for documentation or given a call for references you are required to provide it.

[Gervin]

When a CFR is called for it needs to be answered per board rules: If you are asked for documentation or given a call for references you are required to provide it.

And CFRs were provided. cdowis seems eager to respond to sansfoy's interpretation of 44FoxTrot's response and references.

[Brant Gardner]

The first point I will address is related to language. I claimed that at least two major New World languages contemporary in time and place with the Mesoamerican version of the Book of Mormon. Both Olmec (2000 BC - 400 AD), and Mayan (500 BC - 1200 AD), of which we have countless examples, can now be understood and dictionaries for both languages are available.

Your suggestion over states the actual case. The best understood is the Maya script, but not all glyphs, and hence not all texts, can be completely deciphered. Some have had modifications in their translation in the last 10 years or so. However, even for the Maya, this refers to the script from the Classic period. The precursor to this has been discovered in San Bartolo, dating to between 100 B.C. and A.D. 100, but that script cannot be read at the present time (though there are glyphs that appear to be either the same or very similar).

There is no indisputable script for the Olmec. The Epi-Olmec script has a limited number of examples, but is again pretty late and has only a single large text (the La Mojarra Stela).

For references regarding Olmec, please see A Decipherment of Epi-Olmec Hieroglyphic Writing, by J.S. Justeson and T Kaufman Science 1993

I have actually spoken with Justeson about this, and some of their evidence is pretty good, and includes data suggesting that the Maya glyphic system borrowed from the Epi-Olmec. Unfortunately, however, this is a controversial translation. Houston and Coe attempted to use Justeson and Kaufman's translation on a different Epi-Olmec text, and were unable to translate. I am not aware that the controversy has been resolved. Nevertheless, it far over reaches the data to suggest that Olmec texts can be read. Technically, there are none available (there is one that might be very early writing, but Houston does not believe that it is).

and for Mayan, please see Breaking the Mayan Code by Michale D. Cole.

This is the story of the decipherment of the Classic glyphs, almost all of which post date the Book of Mormon. The sole contemporary text (from San Bartolo) cannot be translated at this time.

So we do understand the contemporary languages and from these writings and other archeological evidence, we understand a lot about the religions of the area, and they are not as described in the BoM.

We understand a tremendous amount about Egypt and Babylon, and quite a bit about Ninevah. They are not the religion described in the Bible. Ergo the Bible's people and religion didn't exist? Even more to the point in Mesoamerica, the best information we have, archaeologically and textually, postdates the Book of Mormon. Should I be surprised that here is no evidence for Nephite religion during a time period when the text says I shouldn't find it?

The entire issues is significantly more complex that you are presenting it here.

Regarding written language in the Mesoamerican BoM narrative, the faithful Mormon is asked to believe that Reformed Egyptian was used for writing. While we have many examples of Olmec and Mayan glyphs in many different media spanning more than 1000 years, we have no examples whatsoever of Reformed Egyptian from Mesoamerica.

This is where your imprecision is quite evident. We have Maya glyphs in different media only for the Classic - post dating the Book of Mormon (save for the San Bartolo text which I have mentioned, and which is different). We do not have any pure Olmec texts, and very few Epi-Olmec texts.

The issue of "reformed Egyptian" begins with trying to understand what the text means, and that is not agreed upon among LDS scholars. To suggest that it doesn't exist based on your similarly incomplete understanding of the nature of written texts in Mesoamerica is quite hasty. There are other texts that are known in a few examples, but where the translation is unknown. There are no books dating to Book of Mormon times, a few carved glyphs, and now one painted text - however, only a date from the area where the Book of Mormon is believed to have occurred.

[Ariarates]

Thanks for posting, everyone. Is the board very slow for you too or is it just me? Every page takes 30+ seconds to load.

Anyway, maybe I'm reading too much into Elder Nelson's remark; I can agree with that assessment but I'm not ready to let go just yet.

Suppose I give the BoM to a friend to read and explain to her that it's another testament of Jesus Christ and not a history book. I would expect my friend to become confused rather quickly, probably right after reading the title page and the introduction.

If the historical aspects aren't all that important, and maybe even distract from the BoM's main message about Christ (which seems to be what Elder Nelson was trying to convey), why are they in there in the first place, given that Mormon was pressed for space and time when he composed the BoM? It's not like God's wheelings and dealings with the BoM peoples are so imaginative as to justify hundreds and hundreds of pages of alleged history; basically, the righteous get blessed and the wicked get destroyed, with no grey areas in between and repeated a dozen times for those of slow comprehension (not a novel indeed).

How can the BoM be "a record of God

[Robert F. Smith]

This is completely bogus analogical "reasoning." We know there was a Galilee and Jerusalem 2000+ years ago. We know Herod, Pontius Pilate, and Caiaphas existed. By way of contrast, there is not a scintilla of evidence for your transoceanic, Reformed-Egyptian-writing, Christians-before-Christ New World Jewry.

Reread what I wrote. I did not claim Christianity is true because Galilee and Jerusalem existed 2000+ years ago. I claimed the poster's analogical "reasoning" was bogus. The difference between Christianity and Mormonism is that the latter has no credible historical context and can't even get off the ground.

We know that Troy existed. We know there was a Greece and a Rome. Does that mean that there is evidence that Zeus exists or that the gods sent auspices to direct mankind?

We know that Julius Ceasar existed. Does that give validity to his claim of being the son of a god? We know that Cleopatra existed. Should we say that that is evidence that she is truly the daughter of Isis?

You can't claim that the reality of jerusalem gives legitimacy to Christianity unless you are willing to claim the same for every other myth and legend that happens in a real place and contains stories about people that really did exist.

Tobin Siebers says in his Mirror of Medusa (1983), 156, that "in the heat of conflict . . . religious elements in competition often demystify each other as part of a strategy to overcome opponents. Once one side demystifies the other side's beliefs, it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain its own system of beliefs."

Ariarates might want to consider the fate of the RLDS Church, now known as the Community of Christ. They abandoned the Book of Mormon as historical fact. That may satisfy Brennin, but he now finds himself hastily defending his own belief system, just as others have been defending the Book of Mormon with equally legitimate claims that he is apparently not aware of.

[44Foxtrot]

When a CFR is called for it needs to be answered per board rules: If you are asked for documentation or given a call for references you are required to provide it.

Hestia,

My post numbers 57, 62 were responses to the CFR. Each contains references as requested. Post 68 also addressed the issue at hand and provided additional clarification.

Sanfoy and others have recognized the posts as responses both specifically and by continuing the discussion. If these are insufficient responses to the CFR, then cdowis will have to be more clear in what he is asking for.