The Book of Mormon is not a history book

[semlogo]

Yes it does.

Does this doctrinally unified organization called Christianity have a website? Do you have any pamphlets?

[semlogo]

It is vapid whether you call it an (online) routine or a viewpoint.

"Tower Existed?" I guess the rules of capitalization are not stressed in your MBA program.

Genesis 11:1-9

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another,

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Book of Abraham requires a global deluge. (See "Egyptus.")

This is simply false.

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

Land does not equal earth.

However a bigger problem resides in the bible with 1Peter 3:20-21

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So the flood of Noah is likened unto a bapstim for the earth.

When a person is baptised they are covered completely with water. The figurative speach here suggests that the earth was covered comeletely by water as that is the only way that it could be a like figure whereunto baptism.

[semlogo]

Abraham 1

21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.

22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.

23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

Apparently reading comprehension is low on the list of required skills at your unaccredited Bible college, Pastor Brennin.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Has Jeff found a single senine? Has he found pre-Columbian steel (or iron) arms and armor? Has he found pre-Columbian horses? Has he found chariots? Has he found Zarahemla?

So the book is only true if we find Zarahemla?

Describe what a Nephite Cahriot looks like.

I have been over this who "pre-Columbian steel (or iron) arms and armor?" Were does the text even claim that they made these?

The only refernce to a steel sword is Labans that specifically say it was made out of steel. I have been over this before with other people, I am prepared to hear the same lame agruemnts.

[Brennin]

The same story, minus the bogus claim about the origin of languages. Thanks for proving my point.

"...from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth..."

[semlogo]

"...from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth..."

Yes. Now compare that with the Biblical story. Do read carefully. Use your finger to help you follow the sentences from left to right if that helps.

[Brennin]

Apparently reading comprehension is low on the list of required skills at your unaccredited Bible college, Pastor Brennin.

We've covered this ground, dim bulb. My advanced degree is in statistics and was obtained from a UC.

As for the text in question, it refers to a previously uninhabited Egypt (which is absurd) under water (i.e., the waters from the flood). According to wikipedia, Egypt is 390,000 sq mi and according to google maps the distance between Thebes and Mt. Ararat is about 1200 miles. To flood the area around Ararat and Egypt would require a great deluge, I'd say.

[Brennin]

Yes. Now compare that with the Biblical story. Do read carefully. Use your finger to help you follow the sentences from left to right if that helps.

According to Ether, there is only one language for the people and that was confounded. According to Genesis 11 there is only one language for the people and that was confounded.

[semlogo]

According to Ether, there is only one language for the people and that was confounded. According to Genesis 11 there is only one language for the people and that was confounded.

You failed to read carefully.

According to the Bible:

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.

Either makes no such claims about the whole earth.

Back to remedial reading class for you.

[semlogo]

We've covered this ground, dim bulb. My advanced degree is in statistics and was obtained from a UC.

As for the text in question, it refers to a previously uninhabited Egypt (which is absurd) under water (i.e., the waters from the flood). According to wikipedia, Egypt is 390,000 sq mi and according to google maps the distance between Thebes and Mt. Ararat is about 1200 miles. To flood the area around Ararat and Egypt would require a great deluge, I'd say.

As usual, you resorts to insults and red herrings, but have no substantive arguments to contribute. Your claim was about the whole earth. You were unable to back it up. Thanks for trying, though.

The fact that you even brought up Abraham is also a red herring, since the subject is the BOM.

[Brennin]

You failed to read carefully.

According to the Bible:

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.

Either makes no such claims about the whole earth.

Back to remedial reading class for you.

What you unsurprisingly fail to apprehend is that the tale in Ether presupposes the details in the Biblical account. "The people" in Ether refers to the people of the earth.

Thank you for demonstrating the intellectual bankruptcy of liberal mormonism so decisively.

[semlogo]

What you unsurprisingly fail to apprehend is that the tale in Ether presupposes the details in the Biblical account. "The people" in Ether refers to the people of the earth.

Thank you for demonstrating the intellectual bankruptcy of liberal mormonism so decisively.

Weak. Ether omits the bogus claim. You can imagine that the account assumes whatever you want, but you have no way to back up that claim.

[cinepro]

Nevertheless, I take courage from this remark. It

[Brennin]

Weak. Ether omits the bogus claim. You can imagine that the account assumes whatever you want, but you have no way to back up that claim.

The very fact that the text introduces "the people" without further detail evinces my claim. Implicit in Ether is the claim you find so embarrassing, which is delightful.

[ELF1024]

Has Jeff found a single senine? Has he found pre-Columbian steel (or iron) arms and armor? Has he found pre-Columbian horses? Has he found chariots? Has he found Zarahemla?

Would you care to explain how Joseph Smith, Jr. was correct about Nahom? How about Bountiful/ Wadi Sayq at the exact location as the Book of Mormon suggests! How about the number of names that have been claimed not to be Hebrew, but have turned out to be real Hebrew names?

How about the fact that a group of horticulturists (specialists in tree culture) looked at the account of olive culture and olive production in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5 and found that in virtually every detail, it matches what we actually know about how olive trees are treated, how they are grown, cultivated, and cared for.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=1

[semlogo]

The very fact that the text introduces "the people" without further detail evinces my claim. Implicit in Ether is the claim you find so embarrassing, which is delightful.

I'll take your continued desperate clinging to the nonspecific, generic term "people" as your white flag of surrender. Nice try, though.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We've covered this ground, dim bulb. My advanced degree is in statistics and was obtained from a UC.

Welp this is a waste of time. I might not care for the way semlogo posts but calling names? Really?

As for the text in question, it refers to a previously uninhabited Egypt (which is absurd) under water (i.e., the waters from the flood). According to wikipedia, Egypt is 390,000 sq mi and according to google maps the distance between Thebes and Mt. Ararat is about 1200 miles. To flood the area around Ararat and Egypt would require a great deluge, I'd say.

What does Mt Ararat have to do wtih anything? I would say that you have a little case of presentism going on here.

[cinepro]

Would you care to explain how Joseph Smith, Jr. was correct about Nahom? How about Bountiful/ Wadi Sayq at the exact location as the Book of Mormon suggests! How about the number of names that have been claimed not to be Hebrew, but have turned out to be real Hebrew names?

How about the fact that a group of horticulturists (specialists in tree culture) looked at the account of olive culture and olive production in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5 and found that in virtually every detail, it matches what we actually know about how olive trees are treated, how they are grown, cultivated, and cared for.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=1

Unfortunately, it's not the hits that falsify a proposition. It's the misses.

[semlogo]

Welp this is a waste of time. I might not care for the way semlogo posts but calling names? Really?

What does Mt Ararat have to do wtih anything?

Brennin is obviously a very emotional person.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Brennin is obviously a very emotional person.

I concour.

[semlogo]

I concour.

See, it only took one emotional outburst from a pedantic, self-described "expert" on the scriptures to bring us together.

[Hestia]

Brennin is no longer participating on this thread due to sneering and insults.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

See, it only took one emotional outburst from a pedantic, self-described "expert" on the scriptures to bring us together.

Ha, that was a good one.

[44Foxtrot]

Would you care to explain how Joseph Smith, Jr. was correct about Nahom? How about Bountiful/ Wadi Sayq at the exact location as the Book of Mormon suggests! How about the number of names that have been claimed not to be Hebrew, but have turned out to be real Hebrew names?

How about the fact that a group of horticulturists (specialists in tree culture) looked at the account of olive culture and olive production in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5 and found that in virtually every detail, it matches what we actually know about how olive trees are treated, how they are grown, cultivated, and cared for.

http://maxwellinstit...anscripts/?id=1

The fatal problem with claims of historicity for the Book of Mormon, as it relates to Mesoamerica, is that we have an authentic contemporary written history for the place and time period involved. In Joseph Smith's time the Mayan and Olmec languages could not be translated or understood. Now they can. We have a fairly complete written record of what was going in Mesoamerica during the period covered by the Book of Mormon, and there is no resemblance whatsoever between the authentic written record and the Book of Mormon narrative - none.

So we are left to select between the following two hypotheses:

H1: The history. culture, technology and beliefs of the inhabitants of Mesoamerica from approximately 2500 BC to 600 AD are best described by combined published research findings of the scientific community including archeologists, linguists, anthropologists, historians, ethnologists, and geologists working on the ground in Mesoamerica over the last century, and who have documented evidence for their conclusions.

H2: The history. culture, technology and beliefs of the inhabitants of Mesoamerica from approximately 2500 BC to 600 AD are best described by an uneducated farm boy who was engaged in treasure hunting in the Northeastern United States in the first half or the 19th century, and claimed to have received his information from a book provided by an angel, which book is now not available as evidence because an angel took it into heaven.

Contrary to claims made by a number of apologists, these two hypotheses H1 and H2 are mutually exclusive (and the best one is pretty clear to me).

You know and I know that there are exactly zero credible scientists outside the Mormon Church (or in the Church for that matter) who consider the Book of Mormon of any value whatsoever in history or archeological research in Mesoamerica (or anywhere else, for that matter). The scientific community considers the BoM a quaint 19th century fraud.

No less an august body than National Geographic Society has provided a written public statement to that effect. The BoM has no credibility whatsoever in the scientific community - none.

So the Mormon apologists, unable to find one scintilla of physical evidence for the BoM in the New World, head off to the Old World. There they find areas of lush green in the otherwise dry terrain along the Omani coastline, and claim, without any evidence whatsoever, that this may have been Bountiful. They then claim Joseph Smith could not have known about such a place and cite the existence of these places (and there are several of them) as evidence for the authenticity of the BoM.

Yet we find the descriptions of such places throughout the Bible, a book with which Joseph Smith was well acquainted and from which he took a great deal of text for the BoM. These descriptions of places (drainage channels for surface and ground water from higher elevations) in the Middle East and Arabian Peninsula would not seem strange to anyone familiar with the Bible. (BTW, I have been along the Fujairahan and Omani coasts by both 4X4 and boat, and there are plenty of these "Bountiful" wadis to choose from. Any claims by apologists that these wadis were not known, or were "discovered" by them is patently ridiculous.)

With demonstration of the utter absence of Semitic DNA in New World human genome prior to the arrival of Europeans in the 1,500's and the retreat in Churches claims about the Nephites and Lamanites as early inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere, it amazes me that the apologists even bother.