Wall Street Journal (Opinion Section) Slams "8: The Mormon Proposition"

[Avatar4321]

Well as an active Mormon living in Californian when this whole thing hit the fan, I can sat that the MEMBERS of the Church and all of their efforts were largely being dictated by leaders of the corporate Church in Salt Lake. The hours they spent on the phone and walking streets with people of other faiths were very much actions specifically directed to them from GENERAL AUTHORITIES, including members of the Church's 2nd highest leading body, the Quorum of the 12. This wasn't working bottom up. It was directed top down. This was especially clear in the October statewide broadcast from Salt Lake, in which leaders of the corporate Church told members in detail what they needed to be doing, including telling young single adults what to say to those who opposed Prop 8 and even how many hours a week they should be volunteering for the Prop 8 movement.

When leaders of the corporate Church are telling their members how many hours they should be volunteering if they want to be on the Lord's side, you can't be calling it a grass-roots movement.

Little guy? Is this why one of the LDS Church's arguments was that a majority of Americans opposed gay marriage? Since when was the majority suddenly the "little guy?

You lost about all credibility for me when you used the language "corporate" church.

[the narrator]

They all acted as a single group.

CFR. I'm not even sure you know what you are actually saying.

The other elements of the group are not as easy a political target as the big, rich, white, male-dominated LDS church. Try attacking black churches in the media and see how far you get.

It seemed to get pretty far with Jeremiah Wright.

[frankenstein]

In truth- are you raising this issue as a matter of principle, or simply as a club to punish the Church for its perfectly legitimate and legal support of a political position with which you disagree?

i raise the issue because people balk at the audacity of suggesting a 501c3 involvement in a political or legislative matter being grounds for revoking tax exempt status is absurd

Are you likewise interested in seeing the various charities, NGO's, labor unions, and advocacy groups who shilled against Prop 8 stripped of their tax-exempt status?

i am interested in every group operating with the bounds of the law.

[the narrator]

You lost about all credibility for me when you used the language "corporate" church.

Sweet. At least I had some credibility for you before I said it. I'll take this as a plus.

cor

[selek]

cfr, because what i posted is from the IRS

Happily.

"When government seeks to use its full power, including the criminal law, to command where a person may get his or her information or what distrusted source he or she may not hear, it uses censorship to control thought. This is unlawful. The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves."

--Associate Justice Anthony Kennedy

Justice Kennedy wrote the long overdue decision of the U.S. Supreme Court last week letting even corporations and labor unions advertise their political opinions. As if this were a free country.

The case in question was Campaign Finance Reform, and the (now acknowledged as un-Constitutional) limits on campaign donations and participation by corporations (even non-profits) in political matters.

http://townhall.com/columnists/PaulGreenberg/2010/01/25/quotes_of_the_day

[ERMD]

CFR. I'm not even sure you know what you are actually saying.

Meaning?

[the narrator]

Meaning?

I'm not even sure you know what you are actually saying.

[Facsimile 3]

Again since when are the "little guys" the majority?

from the prop 8 broadcast that you went to:

Majority of Americans = little guys?

give me a break.

I just curious if you believe that the majority of people in governments usually wield the political power of their country.

[staccato]

I am just sad about the waste of money. Just think about how much food could be put into a pantry for mormon families in need with the money spent on Prop 8?

[ERMD]

I'm not even sure you know what you are actually saying.

Try thinking a little harder, and it may become more clear to you.

[selek]

i raise the issue because people balk at the audacity of suggesting a 501c3 involvement in a political or legislative matter being grounds for revoking tax exempt status is absurd

Actually, given the SCOTUS ruling, it IS absurd.

The absurdity if, of course, compounded, when such a measure is advocated specifically to punish political speech with which one disagrees.

When that happens, it is no longer a matter of being equal before the law- but becomes a matter of using the law to censor free speech and to punish legitimate political discourse.

i am interested in every group operating with the bounds of the law.

Then perhaps you might want to review the performance of a certain Mr. Eric Holder and of a number of very prominent anti-8 groups, instead of fixating blame on the Mormons for the passage of Prop 8.

[ERMD]

I am just sad about the waste of money. Just think about how much food could be put into a pantry for mormon families in need with the money spent on Prop 8?

Any LDS family who needs food, whose Bishop is aware of the need, has it. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[the narrator]

I just curious if you believe that the majority of people in governments usually wield the political power of their country.

I believe that, by definition, the majority of people in governments usually wield the political power in a democratic republic.

From my simple-minded education, I believe it is the case that laws in a democratic republic are based on the votes of the elected representatives, with the majority winning the vote.

Or was it that the vote of the minority?

I can't remember. I'm an idiot.

If you are referring to the voting members of the state, then it seems that Prop 8 passed based on the simple majority of voters in California... which is the fact that the Church has repeatedly pointed to.

The majority (apparently the little guys) won in stripping away rights from the minority (the big guys?).

[the narrator]

Try thinking a little harder, and it may become more clear to you.

Please explain to me in what sense there is to say that the black churches and evangelical community acted as a single group?

[selek]

I am just sad about the waste of money. Just think about how much food could be put into a pantry for mormon families in need with the money spent on Prop 8?

Indeed.

Just think how much more money could have been spent on AIDS treatment programs and needle-exchange programs instead of spent creating false commercials demonizing the Mormons for supporting Prop 8 (considering the margin by which the Anti-8'ers outspent us).

Think about how much could be done for the poor and needy if it hadn't been wasted on lawyers in frivolous lawsuits attempting to disenfranchise the people of California.

Think about how much could be done for the poor and needy if we didn't have to spend the money cleaning up the after-effects of arson, or vandalism, and for the increased security needed to counter cross-burnings and fake anthrax letters.

Think of how much could have been done for the poor and the needy if businesses hadn't been destroyed and people thrown out of work for having the temerity to exercise the Constitutional rights.

So much time and money wasted- because of anti-social violence, terrorism, and attempts at intimidation.

[Facsimile 3]

I believe that, by definition, the majority of people in governments usually wield the political power in a democratic republic.

From my simple-minded education, I believe it is the case that laws in a democratic republic are based on the votes of the elected representatives, with the majority winning the vote.

Or was it that the vote of the minority?

I can't remember. I'm an idiot.

I think this is a very Patriotic High School GYM coach/ history teacher way of looking at it.

[the narrator]

I think this is a very Patriotic High School GYM coach/ history teacher way of looking at it.

Can you give me one example where the minority vote passed legislation over the majority?

If you are referring to the voting members of the state, then it seems that Prop 8 passed based on the simple majority of voters in California... which is the fact that the Church has repeatedly pointed to.

The majority (apparently the little guys) won in stripping away rights from the minority (the big guys?).

[selek]

The majority (apparently the little guys) won in stripping away rights from the minority (the big guys?).

Don't you just love the hyperbole involved here?

Narrator has yet to demonstrate that any legitimate rights were stripped away.

It's a loaded (and intellectually dishonest) question from the git-go- but it's the only means he has to advance his agenda.

There is no attempt at understanding.

No reasoning, no articulation, no attempt to debate.

Just a steady, hypnotic, recitation of the same droning chant over, and over, and over.

In five pages of inflammatory rhetoric and name-calling, Narrator has yet to establish that supporting Prop 8 was a palpable wrong.

[Facsimile 3]

If you are referring to the voting members of the state, then it seems that Prop 8 passed based on the simple majority of voters in California... which is the fact that the Church has repeatedly pointed to.

The majority (apparently the little guys) won in stripping away rights from the minority (the big guys?).

No seriously, you have my position down to a T here.

[selek]

Can you give me one example where the minority vote passed legislation over the majority?

How about this? In the election leading up to Bill Clinton's second term as President of the United States, more people voted AGAINST him than voted for him. The total number of votes cast was AGAINST his re-election by a very sizeable margin, but because those votes were divided between two other candidates, (Dole and Perot, IIRC) Clinton received the largest piece of the pie.

That having been said, the minority was able to impose their choice for that elective office upon the majority.

[ERMD]

Please explain to me in what sense there is to say that the black churches and evangelical community acted as a single group?

There was this thing proposed in California, called Proposition 8. There were 2 big groups of people. One group was FOR Proposition 8. The other group was AGAINST Proposition 8.

See how it works? Shall I elaborate?

[the narrator]

No seriously, you have my position down to a T here.

I guess we're just going to have to break at agreement or disagreement. Not sure where things are at now

Peace.

[Jeff K.]

I am just sad about the waste of money. Just think about how much food could be put into a pantry for mormon families in need with the money spent on Prop 8?

Yes, given the massive amount of support and money from out of state by the anti Prop 8 people, I can see how upset with them you must be. They certainly spent more than those in favor of prop 8.

[the narrator]

There was this thing proposed in California, called Proposition 8. There were 2 big groups of people. One group was FOR Proposition 8. The other group was AGAINST Proposition 8.

See how it works? Shall I elaborate?

well by that general sense of grouping, you are in the same group as many anti-Mormons.

[Facsimile 3]

Can you give me one example where the minority vote passed legislation over the majority?

Has the American middle class shrunken or enlarged since the 50's and 60's?

I would say the fact that judges in California made it legal in the first place for gays to marry would kind of lend credence to my position.