Wall Street Journal (Opinion Section) Slams "8: The Mormon Proposition"

[selek]

Just a euphemism for one group which wants to restrict the rights of another.

Bull Pockey.

In the first instance, State recognition and sanction of a private relationship is not and never has been a Constitutional right.

Second, it's not a euphemism- it's inflammatory rhetoric designed to elicit an explicit emotional response.

You're not reasoning, you're simply tring to incite.

[the narrator]

Uh-huh. And that lying and bigoted "Mormon missionaries are going to ransack your home, take your marriage license and your wedding rings" ad just spontaneously sprang into existence, right?

The anti-8er's were every bit as organized, and coordinated their own message everybit as carefully as did the Pro-8 side.

Your movement was no more "grass roots" than a Madison Avenue ad campaign.

I know I already said I was done with you, but a few quick notes.

I NEVER SAID THAT THE ANTI-8 SIDE WAS A GRASS-ROOTS MOVEMENT.

Stop making things up.

There were only four differences between the methods of the Pro-8 and anti-8 side.

1. - The Pro-8's made arguments. The anti-8's made accusations.
2. - The Pro-8 side urged and counseled people to get out and vote. The Anti-8 side tried to disenfranchise voters through lawsuits and intimidation tactics.
3. - The Pro-8 side relied on local and Church leaders to organize and galvanize- in many instances, organizing for the first time. The Anti-8 side used the EXISTING political and lobbying machinery of large corporations, labor unions, and long-standing activist organizations.
4. - The Pro-8 side was able to convince the people of California that their position was more reasonable and better for the State and her citizens. The Anti-8 side did not.

hollow rhetoric. this is all empty opinion.

[selek]

I'm done debating with you. Ever.

Thank you for the concession of defeat.

Now will you address the questions you've been so assiduously avoiding?

[Facsimile 3]

Well as an active Mormon living in Californian when this whole thing hit the fan, I can sat that the MEMBERS of the Church and all of their efforts were largely being dictated by leaders of the corporate Church in Salt Lake. The hours they spent on the phone and walking streets with people of other faiths were very much actions specifically directed to them from GENERAL AUTHORITIES, including members of the Church's 2nd highest leading body, the Quorum of the 12. This wasn't working bottom up. It was directed top down. This was especially clear in the October statewide broadcast from Salt Lake, in which leaders of the corporate Church told members in detail what they needed to be doing, including telling young single adults what to say to those who opposed Prop 8 and even how many hours a week they should be volunteering for the Prop 8 movement.

When leaders of the corporate Church are telling their members how many hours they should be volunteering if they want to be on the Lord's side, you can't be calling it a grass-roots movement.

I know you served a mission so I'm confused. Do you know how the Church works? You have all these meetings with leaders and have things come from the top down, but all that really doesn't enforce anything. It takes years for any new Church program to get any kind of consistency. Just ask bishops about their Focus 15 families which most failed to get put together. This whole vision you are painting of the over arching Church having all this directing power is bogus. All they did was issue the call and issue reminders. What got things done has been what is always getting things done in the Church and that is little people on the ground magnifying their callings in their own ways (which becomes the Lord's way).

Little guy? Is this why one of the LDS Church's arguments was that a majority of Americans opposed gay marriage? Since when was the majority suddenly the "little guy?

The "Corporate Church" with smokestacks coming out of its back did not swoop down and knock doors. It did not pay people to do so either. I think the term the "Cultural Church" fits better here because it was a society of members sharing a mostly common interest working together and mostly getting things done under their own direction trying to achieve a common goal.

I was at the October statewide broadcast as well. It wasn't too spooky.

[the narrator]

Thank you for the concession of defeat.

Now will you address the questions you've been so assiduously avoiding?

I can't. I was making it all up. You won this debate with your abundant genius and sharp argumentation. Your arguments are just too good to ever counter. I'm amazed that anyone ever tries to even respond to your pure brilliance and astute intellect.

You are a God among men.

And I am an ant among men.

A small ant like me could never counter a God like you.

You win all debates from now on.

[selek]

I know I already said I was done with you, but a few quick notes.

I NEVER SAID THAT THE ANTI-8 SIDE WAS A GRASS-ROOTS MOVEMENT.

You have attempted to condemn the Pro-8 side for engaging in the same tactics and organizational mechanisms as the anti-8'ers, going so far as to repeatedly snear about "a corporate Church".

Yet you have no such hostility toward the organization and tactics of the anti-8 side (with whom you are an ideological fellow traveller).

Exposing your hypocrisy and double-standards is it's own reward, IMO.

That having been said- you still haven't addressed the questions regarding your underlying assertions.

You have called us (explicitly or by implication) bigots, oppressors, corporate shills, unthinking dupes, and worse.

Yet you haven't provided a single justification of a single one of the names you've called us.

You haven't demonstrated where or why Prop 8 was wrong or morally or ethically indefensible.

And that lapse is both significant and revealing.

[selek]

I can't. I was making it all up. You won this debate with your abundant genius and sharp argumentation. Your arguments are just too good to ever counter. I'm amazed that anyone ever tries to even respond to your pure brilliance and astute intellect.

You are a God among men.

And I am an ant among men.

A small ant like me could never counter a God like you.

You win all debates from now on.

More mockery in lieu of reason.

I'm willing to be convinced.

Won't you even try?

[the narrator]

I know you served a mission so I'm confused. Do you know how the Church works? You have all these meetings with leaders and have things come from the top down, but all that really doesn't enforce anything. It takes years for any new Church program to get any kind of consistency. Just ask bishops about their Focus 15 families which most failed to get put together. This whole vision you are painting of the over arching Church having all this directing power is bogus. All they did was issue the call and issue reminders. What got things done has been what always getting things done in the Church and that is little people on the ground magnifying their callings in their own ways (which becomes the Lord's way).

The "Corporate Church" with smokestacks coming out of its back did not swoop down and knock doors. It did not pay people to do so either. I think the term the "Cultural Church" fits better here because it was a society of members sharing a mostly common interest working together and mostly getting things done under their own direction trying to achieve a common goal.

I was at the October statewide broadcast as well. It wasn't too spooky.

I know very much how the Church works. Since you were at the October broadcast you heard GENERAL AUTHORITIES from the HEADQUARTERS in SALT LAKE instruct members in CALIFORNIA on specific things they should say and specific hours they should be volunteering. That is not the workings of a grass-roots movement. Just because local leaders needed to remind people doesn't make it any less of a corporate body. It's call bureaucracy.

I didn't say the meeting was spooky. However it included a number of statements that were factually not true, such as Bednar's claim that a failure of Prop 8 to pass could result in our not being able to teach our doctrines.

Again, Little guy? Is this why one of the LDS Church's arguments was that a majority of Americans opposed gay marriage? Since when was the majority suddenly the "little guy?

[Facsimile 3]

You are overstepping the analogy. You are a smart philosophy student. You don't need to stoop to this.

Prop 8 was personal to me because I had a lot of personal contact with it. I had friends and family members confronted with Civil Rights era style intimidation tactics. My uncle working for a major law firm in the Bay Area was reprimanded by his law firm for his financial involvement in Prop 8.

[the narrator]

Prop 8 was personal to me because I had a lot of personal contact with it. I had friends and family members confronted with Civil Rights era style intimidation tactics. My uncle working for a major law firm in the Bay Area was reprimanded by his law firm for his involvement in Prop 8.

MY DAD WAS TOLD NOT TO MARRY MY MOM BECAUSE THEIR INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE WAS UNNATURAL, NON-TRADITIONAL, AND AN ABOMINATION THAT WOULD HAVE PUNISHED THEIR CHILDREN--me.

I have friends who are lovingly married to their gay partners (and much more true and loyal to their husbands/wives than some of my straight friends), and I have friends who have been in long-term loving relationships with their partners and hoping to get married soon.

I was planning my proposal to my wife while this was going on.

It's personal on both ends pal.

[Jeff K.]

Amazing argument!

Reflecting how brownshirts come in all orientations.

And no, your arguments have been rather baseless to this point.

[Facsimile 3]

Again, Little guy? Is this why one of the LDS Church's arguments was that a majority of Americans opposed gay marriage? Since when was the majority suddenly the "little guy?

Since when did the majority of America determine the direction of its popular culture? Getting back to my original statement. The Corporations that provide the material for consumption by the public have never been the majority for better or for worse.

The fact that my hipster friends and this crappy film using an indie venue are so antagonistic towards the little people (you know the ones who don't have big record label contracts or reality TV shows) out there doing what they believe in and using the venues of democracy to make it happen, causes me to pause in contemplation.

I guess we just see it different ways. I see the Church members as David and MTV and Levis Strauss as Goliath.

[selek]

Reflecting how brownshirts come in all orientations.

Too far, my brother.

Please- let's leave the implicit Godwin's Law violations to Narrator, since they seem to be his forte.

And no, your arguments have been rather baseless to this point.

CFR- where and when did he make one

[Mark Beesley]

I haven't seen the movie so I don't know if the allegation is made. However, I know for a fact that some lost their callings and/or temple recommends for publicly opposing Prop. 8.

I seriously doubt this. Someone lost a temple recommend because they publicly opposed Prop. 8? I don't believe it for a second. If you can substantiate either of these allegations of lost callings or lost recommends simply for publicly opposing Prop 8, please provide Salt Lake with the Stake and Ward where it occurred and I promise you, action will be taken.

[Facsimile 3]

MY DAD WAS TOLD NOT TO MARRY MY MOM BECAUSE THEIR INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE WAS UNNATURAL, NON-TRADITIONAL, AND AN ABOMINATION THAT WOULD HAVE PUNISHED THEIR CHILDREN--me.

Wow! You must have included this because the prophet in an October meeting instructed your father with these words? You know from the top down like Prop 8.

I have friends who are lovingly married to their gay partners (and much more true and loyal to their husbands/wives than some of my straight friends), and I have friends who have been in long-term loving relationships with their partners and hoping to get married soon.

I dated a girl who I cared for quite a bit who ended up becoming a lesbian by the time I got home from my mission. Imagine my first phone call to her when I got home and found out! "Hey, I thought I'd just get this out of the way now, so I'm a lesbian now and I live with my girl friend who is the singer in a twee pop band."

It's personal on both ends pal.

Many LDS people our age do too pal.

[the narrator]

Since when did the majority of America determine the direction of its popular culture? Getting back to my original statement. The Corporations that provide the material for consumption by the public have never been the majority for better or for worse.

The fact that my hipster friends and this crappy film using an indie venue are so antagonistic towards the little people (you know the ones who don't have big record label contracts or reality TV shows) out there doing what they believe in and using the venues of democracy to make it happen, causes me to pause in contemplation.

I guess we just see it different ways. I see the Church members as David and MTV and Levis Strauss as Goliath.

Again since when are the "little guys" the majority?

from the prop 8 broadcast that you went to:

The majority of Americans share the concerns that have prompted the coalition to protect

marriage to move forward with Proposition 8.

Majority of Americans = little guys?

give me a break.

[the narrator]

I seriously doubt this. Someone lost a temple recommend because they publicly opposed Prop. 8? I don't believe it for a second. If you can substantiate either of these allegations of lost callings or lost recommends simply for publicly opposing Prop 8, please provide Salt Lake with the Stake and Ward where it occurred and I promise you, action will be taken.

I can assure you that I am being honest. It's not my job to jump in.

[selek]

I seriously doubt this. Someone lost a temple recommend because they publicly opposed Prop. 8? I don't believe it for a second. If you can substantiate either of these allegations of lost callings or lost recommends simply for publicly opposing Prop 8, please provide Salt Lake with the Stake and Ward where it occurred and I promise you, action will be taken.

Not to throw too much gasoline on this fire, but I too recall hearing of one particularly....virulent....Bishop who was not content to say, "No thank you" to Salt Lake for their guidance.

He made a huge fuss on the local news (I think- but am not certain- that he was from a stake in New Mexico) and attacked the Church and its position and used his calling to claim some sort of "expert" status.

IIRC, he was released- not for opposing Prop, but for publically and aggressively slandering and maligning the Church.

Much like the pair who were released from their calling with the Tabernacle choir, and the one associate professor at BYU who was not picked up for tenure.

In each case, it was not thier opposition to Prop 8 that got them in trouble- it was their attempt to trade on their "insider" status to bolster hurtful and hateful attacks on the Church- in short, for misusing their membership and leadership status to somehow legitimize thier very public apostacy.

[the narrator]

Wow! You must have included this because the prophet in an October meeting instructed your father with these words? You know from the top down like Prop 8.

Huh? Where is your logic that this came from?

And actually, Church leaders did teach this for quite a while.

I dated a girl who I cared for quite a bit who ended up becoming a lesbian by the time I got home from my mission. Imagine my first phone call to her when I got home and found out!

Are you still friends with her? Wait for her to get into a loving relationship. Now tell her that you will fight with all your might to prevent her from getting married.

[frankenstein]

so one question still stands

Is it reasonable for people for raise the issue of Tax Exemption status violations?

From the IRS:

Reg. 1.501

[selek]

Again since when are the "little guys" the majority?

Since- whether singly or in the vast thundering herd- they are each the little guy.

Majority of Americans = little guys?

give me a break.

Since the majority of Americans are "the little guy", your posturing on this issue makes even less sense (a noteworthy feat) than your condemnation of the Pro-8'ers using the same organizational tactics as the anti-8'ers.

As you have demonstrated throughout this thread, you are only opposed to corporate (or government) intervention when it complicates your ambitions or agenda, and you are willing to demonize anybody in order to avoid examining the logical and foundational underpinnings of that agenda.

You still haven't demonstrated where, when, why, or how Prop 8 was wrong- let alone how Mormons were wrong to support it.

You've offered up a lot of hateful rhetoric and innuendo about those who supported Prop 8, but you've yet to demonstrate where, why, or how it was wrong.

[Facsimile 3]

Huh? Where is your logic that this came from?

And actually, Church leaders did teach this for quite a while.

Are you still friends with her? Wait for her to get into a loving relationship. Now tell her that you will fight with all your might to prevent her from getting married.

LOL. Way to stick it in me like that. Actually, even though I was still a little weird (having just been off my mission for 2 days) I handed the situation remarkably well. We aren't really so close anymore, but we are on good terms and still friends.

[selek]

so one question still stands

Is it reasonable for people for raise the issue of Tax Exemption status violations?

Eminently reasonable.

The SCOTUS, on the other hand, has definitively answered the question as a matter of law- and concluded that the Church's behavior in the Prop 8 question was perfectly legitimate.

Further, the use of the question (rather than the question itself) to demonize, harass, or punish people is also eminently reasonable.

So- as an act of eminent reason- let's ask the question:

Are you opposed to the Church's tax-exempt status in general, or simply as an outgrowth of the defeat of Prop 8?

Are you likewise interested in seeing the various charities, NGO's, labor unions, and advocacy groups who shilled against Prop 8 stripped of their tax-exempt status?

In truth- are you raising this issue as a matter of principle, or simply as a club to punish the Church for its perfectly legitimate and legal support of a political position with which you disagree?

[frankenstein]

Eminently reasonable.

The SCOTUS, on the other hand, has definitively answered the question as a matter of law- and concluded that the Church's behavior in the Prop 8 question was perfectly legitimate.

cfr, because what i posted is from the IRS

[ERMD]

Because there is no monolithic "Black Church" or "Evangelical Community" that acted as one single group. There is an LDS Church that was led by a single group of leadership in support of Prop 8.

Also, the contributions of black churches, evangelicals, and catholics did not come close to that of Mormons.

They all acted as a single group.

The other elements of the group are not as easy a political target as the big, rich, white, male-dominated LDS church. Try attacking black churches in the media and see how far you get.