Atonement Theory

[Lamanite]

You're asking for a reference for my belief that our Lord has said eternal marriages must be solemnized before the resurrection?

Ugh, that would be me, since it is my belief.

If you're not familiar with anyone else who has ever said they believe that, nevermind. Maybe it is just me.

Ahab,

I have met some people who think ordinance's and repentance must be done prior to final judgment. I am not one of them. I was think that you may interpret a certain scripture(s) in a way to persuade me otherwise. Trust me, I am the last man that would begrudge another the right to believe however they want to believe, regardless of whether there is a scriptural foundation.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

I really like where you are heading with this.

Regarding accusers: What if they just forgive us? I forgive them; they forgive me; God loves and forgives all of us. Hence, no need for satisfaction.

(this absolutely neglects all the other functions of the atonement. But can we tinker with this aspect for a minute?)

Big UP!

Lamanite

The reason we can forgive each other is because of the Atonement and how receiving mercy (or at the very least, recognizing our depsreate need for it) changes us.

The key to understanding this is the account of the woman taken in adultery.

edit: Paul made a brilliant assessment in Romans 5:20. The law entered that offence might abound but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. In other words, there had to be a law so that we could become fallen and recognize our need for salvation. The law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. We see our need and progress from obedience to sacrifice, where we offer a broken heart and contrite Spirit. It is here that the Gospel provides an intercessor whose name we take. We pledge to be His disciples and He promises to cover our sins. Finally, we move from sheep to shepherd as we consecrate all that we have to God and become His stewards, like Christ, by refusing our right to justice and instead offering mercy so that The Father's will is accomplished.

And this is the Father

[Lamanite]

The reason we can forgive each other is because of the Atonement and how receiving mercy (or at the very least, recognizing our depsreate need for it) changes us.

The key to understanding this is the account of the woman taken in adultery.

edit: Paul made a brilliant assessment in Romans 5:20. The law entered that offence might abound but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. In other words, there had to be a law so that we could become fallen and recognize our need for salvation. The law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. We see our need and progress from obedience to sacrifice, where we offer a broken heart and contrite Spirit. It is here that the Gospel provides an intercessor whose name we take. We pledge to be His disciples and He promises to cover our sins. Finally, we move from sheep to shepherd as we consecrate all that we have to God and become His stewards, like Christ, by refusing our right to justice and instead offering mercy so that The Father's will is accomplished.

And this is the Father

[Glenn101]

Hi Lightbearer,

I appreciate the scriptures you shared. I'm always amazed at how well versed you are. And although I like the scriptures, I interpret them to support my current paradigm, as it seems is the case with you.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I am not sure what your current paradigm is. Do you believe in progression between degrees of glory? And if so, can you point out the scriptural basis for the belief?

While we wait. Can you throw in some stuff about Adam and Eve. It is all fine and dandy to say we needed redemption from the Fall, but why?

Big UP!

Lamanite

The effects of the "fall" of Adam and Eve is the physical death that was brought into the world. Without that part of the atonement, none of us would ever be resurrected. Please don't ask me the "how" of this. I have no idea how Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection enables us to become resurrected. There's a bit of faith involved here.

As for the idea that eons later a person may have remorse and wish to repent for a sin committed against another person, I do not see any scriptural support for it.

From my understanding of the scriptures, a sin unrepented of in this life, with knowledge that such was a sin, will have to be paid for by the sinner.

This is borne out by the Doctrine and Covenants Section 19:

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit

[Lamanite]

I am not sure what your current paradigm is. Do you believe in progression between degrees of glory? And if so, can you point out the scriptural basis for the belief?

Hi Glenn. I'm going to give you a few scriptures from 3 Nephi that I could use to base my belief in eternal progression "between degrees of glory" on. This passage is the first that came to mind but there are more. Anyway, we could start with these if you want to debate. I think you'll see that from the outset we will both appeal to our own interpretation of these scriptures. There has been some discussion on this topic by Prophets and Apostles, (especially during the reformation) but I won't cite them, simply because what they have said on the subject can't be considered doctrinal.

14 Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will ^acome unto me ye shall have ^beternal life. Behold, mine ^carm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. 15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I ^acreated the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. ^bI am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name. 16 I came unto my own, and my own ^areceived me not. And the scriptures ^bconcerning my coming are fulfilled. 17 And as many as have received me, to them have I ^agiven to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me ^bredemption cometh, and ^cin me is the ^dlaw of Moses fulfilled. 18 I am the ^alight and the life of the world. I am ^bAlpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. 19 And ye shall offer up unto me ^ano more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings. 20 And ye shall offer for a ^asacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I ^bbaptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not. 21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring ^aredemption unto the world, to save the world from sin. 22 Therefore, whoso ^a<a title="TG Repentance." mark="a" type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/9/22a">repenteth and cometh unto me ^bas a ^clittle child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have ^dlaid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

Please don't ask me the "how" of this. I have no idea how Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection enables us to become resurrected. There's a bit of faith involved here.

I'm not interested in the "how's", only the "why's."

Doesn't God have the ability to forgive and resurrect his children without sending his Son on a suicide mission to Earth? (I am intentionally using inflammatory language to make my point.)

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

While we wait. Can you throw in some stuff about Adam and Eve. It is all fine and dandy to say we needed redemption from the Fall, but why?

Is the question why did we need to Fall in order to progress? When I read the Moses account which specifically says Satan beguiled Eve because He didn't know the mind of God. I read this as saying the Fall was part of the plan all along. If that is so, it's pretty good indicator of who we were before this life. If we were in a childlike spiritual state we had to mature, which required separation from spiritual parents.

The Fall allowed for that maturation. The principle of opposition (2 Ne. 2) illustrates how progress is made through experiencing adverse conditions. We must have a knowledge of good AND evil that is independent and experiential. Without this opposition, the earth would have been created for naught (v.12) for the earth is, by design,the future habitation of celestial bodies (D&C 88:25).

God isn't creating a stadium full of adoring fans like some cosmic rock star. He is first and foremost a parent and it is in His nature to raise us up to become who He is.

This is in addition to the obvious need we have for a conjunction of flesh and spirit to experience a fulness of joy (have seed and create our own dominion) per D&C 93.

[Glenn101]

-----------------------

I'm not interested in the "how's", only the "why's."

Doesn't God have the ability to forgive and resurrect his children without sending his Son on a suicide mission to Earth? (I am intentionally using inflammatory language to make my point.)

Big UP!

Lamanite

Lamanite, thanks for your reply. After reading your scripture selection, I cannot see how this equates with progression between degrees of glory. The scriptures I quoted in my previous post lay out why I think that the verses you quoted apply to this mortal existence. In other words, God has drawn some lines for us.

Maybe, if you take what you have quoted as stand alone scripture, I could see it, but when taken with the body of scripture concerning this life and the life to come, I do not feel progression between degrees of glory is supported. Especially when considering the Doctrine and Covenants passage in section 76 that I believe mercyngrace cited about the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom that "they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

That section also indicates to me that there will be no repentance possible for those because they will have paid the price for their sins in hell until the fulness of times when Christ will have subdued all his enemies under His feet and perfected His work.

As for your question does god have the ability to forgive sins without sending His Son on a suicide mission, I will have to let a prophet of God answer that question. I think maybe this has also ben cited already.

Alma 42: 15:15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an tonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

There are other scriptures also that point out the need for a Savior, a Redeemer form the fall also. If necessary, we can delve into those. Or I could just throw some circular logic at you. If we didn't need a Redeemer, God would not have sent one.

Glenn

[mercyngrace]

I've got some great stuff on resurrection as a priesthood power of celestial beings - a creative power. It's scriptural based on D&C. Let me see if I can find my notes after the kids finish their school work.

With good reason, the Apostle Paul taught,

[Lamanite]

"they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Unless they accept his infinite and eternal atonement. Unless they become converted and possess a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Unless they repent and enter into the presence of the Lord.

Last time I was presented or received at the veil, there were no time limits except through time and eternity. (tread lightly because I don't want this thread shut down.) No time limits, just an examination of the individual. And at any point in time if that person repents, he/she can enter into the presence of God.

36 And thus the work of the Lord did commence among the Lamanites; thus the Lord did begin to pour out his ^aSpirit upon them; and we see that his arm is extended to ^ball people who will repent and believe on his name. (No time limit)

[Ahab]

Ahab,

I have met some people who think ordinance's and repentance must be done prior to final judgment. I am not one of them. I was think that you may interpret a certain scripture(s) in a way to persuade me otherwise. Trust me, I am the last man that would begrudge another the right to believe however they want to believe, regardless of whether there is a scriptural foundation.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I believe we'll always need to repent whenever we do anything God doesn't want us to do, after we find out God doesn't want us to do that, so don't get that mixed up with my belief that we have a limited time to receive certain ordinances for exaltation, and I do have some scriptural basis for my belief that we only have a limited time to perform all of the work that needs to be performed. I just don't memorize things by chapter and verse so it's difficult for me to provide that type of reference for why I believe what I believe, other than to say that it's something I believe God has taught me both personally and through his prophets and apostles.

There are some things I could say that may help you a little bit, though. For one thing, I'm thinking about what our Lord said about how "in the resurrection" there will be no marriage, or giving in marriage, and by that I understand that those who are not married before the time they are "in the resurrection" will be those who will remain single.

There are also some scriptures which talk about how there is only so much time for us to do our work, often while warning us not to procrastinate in our days of probation, and by that I understand those prophets and apostles to be talking about receiving the ordinances that are required of us if we hope to receive certain blessings from the laws of God.

You do realize that at some point everyone will have had the opportunity to do any work they needed to do to receive blessings from God, after which point they will have chosen either to do that work or to not do it, don't you?

To be on the safe side, I think everyone should receive all of the ordinances God says we must receive to receive particular blessings, just in case they later decide they might like to have the blessings that come from receiving those ordinances, even if they don't want the blessings that can come from those ordinances now, otherwise God can fairly and justly say that he gave us all the opporunity to receive all of his blessings and we simply declined his offer, and then we will miss out, kinda like how Satan also chose to miss out on all the blessings that he could have chosen to receive.

[Lamanite]

...declined his offer...

First off, sorry that I don't proof read my posts. My "freestyle" writing technique leaves much to be desired.

Back to the topic. After we decline his offer, can we not then accept it? Surely, his all encompassing, infinite, and eternal atonement could reach reconcile someone with God far into the future just as good as it can reconcile someone with God right now, right?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Glenn101]

I could go on. And then you could quote some Revelations and D&C scriptures that do mention a "final" judgment and then I could say that you did not read it correctly. And on and on. But I can see why you think the way you do.

Big UP!

Lamanite

You forgot the Book of Mormon. I will quote this one last scripture and leave it at that. Of course you get the last counterpunch if you so desire.

Alma 34:35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

Glenn

[Ahab]

First off, sorry that I don't proof read my posts. My "freestyle" writing technique leaves much to be desired.

Back to the topic. After we decline his offer, can we not then accept it? Surely, his all encompassing, infinite, and eternal atonement could reach reconcile someone with God far into the future just as good as it can reconcile someone with God right now, right?

Big UP!

Lamanite

I think we may need to setttle another point first, before we settle that point.

Accepting what God offers us is contingent upon us doing something to show that we accept what God is offering. Right?

For example, if God offers us eternal life including eternal marriage to a spouse, we must do something to show that we accept his offer while also finding someone else who will also offer to be our spouse for eternity. Right?

In other words, if we hope to be married for eternity, with God's approval, we must first find a spouse who will agree to be married to us for eternity while also receiving God's approval. Right?

Okay, so here we are on this Earth trying to find someone who will agree to marry us for eternity, while also receiving God's approval, with some people saying Yes and some other people saying No.

At some point, all of the people who want to be married are going to have found a spouse, though. Right?

In other words, at some point there will be nobody left for anyone to marry, because all of the people who wanted to be married will have already become married. Right?

So if you chose to say No in the past, and then you later change your mind and want to say Yes, who will you marry?

God isn't the only one you need if you want to be married for eternity, because you also need someone else to marry, so if you said No in the past and all of the people you could have married get married to someone else, how will you get married later even if God does say it's okay for you to get married later?

Even if God would separate 2 people who he has already joined together, just so you would have someone to marry, there may not be anyone else who is willing to leave her spouse just so you can marry her, so it seems to be that you would continue to remain with all of the people who had already said No.

[Lamanite]

I think we may need to setttle another point first, before we settle that point.

Accepting what God offers us is contingent upon us doing something to show that we accept what God is offering. Right?

For example, if God offers us eternal life including eternal marriage to a spouse, we must do something to show that we accept his offer while also finding someone else who will also offer to be our spouse for eternity. Right?

In other words, if we hope to be married for eternity, with God's approval, we must first find a spouse who will agree to be married to us for eternity while also receiving God's approval. Right?

Okay, so here we are on this Earth trying to find someone who will agree to marry us for eternity, while also receiving God's approval, with some people saying Yes and some other people saying No.

At some point, all of the people who want to be married are going to have found a spouse, though. Right?

In other words, at some point there will be nobody left for anyone to marry, because all of the people who wanted to be married will have already become married. Right?

So if you chose to say No in the past, and then you later change your mind and want to say Yes, who will you marry?

God isn't the only one you need if you want to be married for eternity, because you also need someone else to marry, so if you said No in the past and all of the people you could have married get married to someone else, how will you get married later even if God does say it's okay for you to get married later?

Even if God would separate 2 people who he has already joined together, just so you would have someone to marry, there may not be anyone else who is willing to leave her spouse just so you can marry her, so it seems to be that you would continue to remain with all of the people who had already said No.

I'm sure God can provide the possibility of love and romance for those who are still looking. His omnipotence surely covers this scenario.

If Steuss was here I'm sure he would be singing the theme song to the Love Boat.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Ahab]

I'm sure God can provide the possibility of love and romance for those who are still looking. His omnipotence surely covers this scenario.

If Steuss was here I'm sure he would be singing the theme song to the Love Boat.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I'm all for love and romance, but still, there ARE going to be some people who will say No to marriage up to the very moment of their final judgment, so how do you propose that they will get married later, IF they ever change their mind later about marriage, considering the fact that all of the people who wanted to be married before the day of judgment will already be married?

p.s. And btw, keep in mind that many people believe there isn't even a possibility that they will be married even to the same person they married here on this Earth, so they won't even be looking for it because they will continue to believe that there will be no marriage in heaven.

[wenglund]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. There have been many wonderful and insightful comments. And, I don't have much to add except to say that in order to fully undersand the atonement it is also necessary, as others have intimated, to understand it in concert with the fall and the resurrection. Specifically. in regards to each, we are talking about a necessary change in nature needed to progress, which change is made possible through death and new birth. The apostle Paul gives a brief disertation on this in 1 Cor. 15.

To answer some of the questions posed on this thread, it may be good to first answer these questions for each of the changes in nature resulting from the fall, atonement, and resurrection:

1. What is the cause of death for or preceeding each?

2. What is the means for new birth for each?

3. And, most important, while we may, in some cases, bring about our own death (though to do so is forbidden by God), can we bring about our own birth? Or, is our birth necessarily made possible by the actions of others?

The reason this last question is important is it helps explains, in part, and at least to my mind, that it is not possible for us to rise above our lower state and be born unto a higher state. Our "parents" (including, and especially in a certain sense, Christ) are needed for us to achieve that end--thus given new meaning and significance to the notion of "family".

Also, it may shed some light on the issue of progression between kingdoms. If someone physically dies and is born again unto a tellestial nature, then wouldn't they need to die and be born again in order to change and gain a celestial nature? And, if so, what is the process of new birth, and who or what will facilitate it?

Granted, I am looking at this question with a finite mind, and things in the eternities might work somewhat differently. And, I am okay with that--which is why I feel little need to have hard and fast answers now for what may or may not be the case in the eternities beyond the grave, but am content with taking care of matters that I can be fairly certain of in the hear and now.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Ahab]

If someone physically dies and is born again unto a tellestial nature, then wouldn't they need to die and be born again in order to change and gain a celestial nature?

Yes, because those who receive Telestial glory will not have received the gospel, while those who receive Celestial glory will have.

And btw, I believe it's more appropriate to use the word "glory" rather than nature, because all of us will have a divine and godly nature then, just as we have now to some extent, even though we are not as perfect as our Father in heaven.

[mercyngrace]

Great questions, Wade. There's definitely a lot to think about.

I wanted to flesh out a few thoughts about resurrection. (Haha)

In terms of immortality and eternal life, there must be someone with BOTH the creative power and the right to give life. The Father has the creative power but the right to raise us a function of mercy, and that is now Christ's right alone. In this way, Christ becomes both Father and Son as He gives us life.

The quickening process is both spiritual and physical. The process happens over time through exposure to the Holy Ghost until we are sanctified. At this point the HG presents us to Christ (Heb 10:19-20) and we are made just (justified) through the covenant. We are taken as a bride with her bridegroom and we are presented to the Father who then performs His work. He exalts us.

[rockslider]

Hmmm, Wade's thoughts on the potential need for a death and rebirth, IF progression between kingdoms of glory is possible sparked this thought/question as well.

Will there be any sin in the resurrected Telestial Kingdom of God? I believe the answer would be no. Heck who knows --- yet another aspect/view/definition of re-incarnation? The need to go back to a fallen state and be reborn.

This also brings to mind some "unofficial doctrines" about who even those in the highest order of exaltation might partake of course materials to enable another death, for yet another aspect of "eternal progression".

[wenglund]

Great questions, Wade. There's definitely a lot to think about.

I wanted to flesh out a few thoughts about resurrection. (Haha)

In terms of immortality and eternal life, there must be someone with BOTH the creative power and the right to give life. The Father has the creative power but the right to raise us a function of mercy, and that is now Christ's right alone. In this way, Christ becomes both Father and Son as He gives us life.

I like this.

However, I wonder if there is an aspect to this that may not be commonly considered. That being, while it may be that, as you say, Christ has the right alone, does he exercise that right alone?

As I see it, the creative powers in relation to the various births, may actually be pro-creative (figuratively and literally). I am not thinking so much in terms of the mechanics of procreation, but that it is the culmination of an act between a Father and a Mother (figuratively and literally speaking). Birth as spirit children presumably came by way of a Father and Mother; birth into mortality certain came by way of a father and mother; so it would seem to me that birth into life eternal will come by way of a father and mother.

If so, then who is the mother in the resurrection? Who are the "parents" by which we may be born again? Is it not Christ and his bride/wife the Church?

I believe so.

It does seem to me to be consistent with the Proclimation on the Family.

{Edit out wildly speculative symbolism]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rockslider]

There was an excellent talk about Adam, premortal existence - birth/organization thoughts - given at the Mormon Scholars Foundation presentations Thursday. There was some talk that Loap might collect them on this blog site, hope he does.

Anyway the father mother aspect Wade mentions is very interesting. Of course the Patriarchal aspect of the Temple and Holy Order are totally Husband/Wife based. In fact it seems a worthy point to ponder that Father, Mother and even Christ are not physical participants in the climatic/culminating parts of the endowment. I suppose that we, at that point, have become one with them, in all purpose and function.

[Lamanite]

I know I owe someone a discussion on Marriage and eternal progression....

But I brought up a few aspects of the temple that lack time restraints, actually the time mentioned seems to denote "eternity."

Big UP!

Lamanite

[tld]

Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that when we die and go to the spirit world we find that we are back where we came from and every spirit being has an opportunity and an infinite amount of time to progress towards the highest levels of the spirit world (heaven), including those in the outer reaches of darkness. What has been the purpose of the atonement?

[rockslider]

Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that when we die and go to the spirit world we find that we are back where we came from and every spirit being has an opportunity and an infinite amount of time to progress towards the highest levels of the spirit world (heaven), including those in the outer reaches of darkness. What has been the purpose of the atonement?

We immediately realize that Mormon Doctrine was wrong.

edit:

what if we do not?

[wenglund]

We immediately realize that Mormon Doctrine was wrong.

Wrong about what? The atonement having a purpose (which is what the question was addressing)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-