Atonement Theory

[mercyngrace]

edit:

I will also add in that I believe there are some levels of final achievement that require experiences obtained in the mortal portion of this life.

And the child who dies before 8? or the person who dies without the gospel who would have accepted it?

For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

D&C 137

I'm not sure some won't have the experiences they need in the next life. They acquired a body which allows for a fulness of joy at some point. Their ordinances can be performed for them and they are in the CK already based on the desires of their hearts. Seems kind of fluid to me.

[mercyngrace]

Regarding the life review and self-judgment, I merely summarized what many of those who have had NDEs report. What they don't report is an expectation of a future resurrection and judgment. For Swedenborg, who spent 13 years visiting the spirit world, "The final 'judgment' is our own realization of our individual essential nature as we face our real selves, rather than an evaluation and dictate by a power beyond." I guess we each have to decide on whether to go with what is or with what might be.

This is not inconsistent with the LDS view of the Spirit World. The state of hell, for example, is wherever the soul is who has a bright recollection of all his guilt. He sees his true self and doesn't like the man in the mirror. LDS believe that we cleave unto our own - in other words, we gather with others who are like us in the Spirit World - it's the same kind of self-sorting you describe. The only difference I see is that we believe the possibility for redemption extends beyond the grave.

Of course, resurrection would be a final judgment of sorts by a "power beyond" but it is offered to all, some sooner some later but this goes beyond what a NDE or SW visitor would have experienced.

[rockslider]

And the child who dies before 8? or the person who dies without the gospel who would have accepted it?

D&C 137

I'm not sure some won't have the experiences they need in the next life. They acquired a body which allows for a fulness of joy at some point. Their ordinances can be performed for them and they are in the CK already based on the desires of their hearts. Seems kind of fluid to me.

I really flip flop on this one, as it would surely not be just for the examples you give. I suppose I'm still projecting my own drives and personal beliefs of my own needs/requirements on the whole. I'm likely wrong for myself, let-a-lone the whole.

It's just my escalator theory pet peeve, which would basically only apply to active Mormons.

Just tell me MnG --- "you really need to get over that."

[mercyngrace]

I really flip flop on this one, as it would surely not be just for the examples you give. I suppose I'm still projecting my own drives and personal beliefs of my own needs/requirements on the whole. I'm likely wrong for myself, let-a-lone the whole.

It's just my escalator theory pet peeve, which would basically only apply to active Mormons.

Just tell me MnG --- "you really need to get over that."

Rock,

You really need to get over that. Just kidding.

Actually, I'm fine presenting both sides of this argument because I can see both sides very clearly which in my mind leads to only one conclusion.... there is too much we still don't know. The discussion is fun, though, even if you know much of it is speculation.

Cate

[tld]

Coming back to your first statement in this thread. You mention the progression goal is to "progress towards the highest levels of the spirit world(heaven)".

To me, the progression goal is all about learning, knowing and acquiring the attributes of God. Physical locations and associations in "heaven" based on this are secondary and simply the cause/effect result of approaching God, via becoming like him.

Based on studies of NDE's, I don't know if you believe in a God or what role that God may play in the spirit world.

If you do believe in God, then may I suggest that in either of our views of the post mortal life, the key is becoming like God and letting the chips fall where they may in heaven. FWIW, I think your focus is too fixed on the effect and not the cause. Put the spirit world on the back burner for a bit and focus on mortal goals and God.

Only rarely does a person who has had an NDE not believe in God, even someone who before the NDE was an atheist. What is the main attribute of God? Is it not love? Love and Light in the spirit world appear to be the same. Those who cannot stand God's love, for whatever reason, move away from the light.

I used the terminology I did because "eternal progression" is such an important theme in LDS culture. Here, and in some of the other threads that I started, the question for me has always been whether or not the spirit world is sufficient, over and above a temporary mortal life. IOW, when we die, can we accomplish God's plan, whatever that is, within the spirit world or must we await a future resurrection and final judgment? As I see it, it all hinges on the need for a physical body -- that the spirit and the body must be recombined (resurrected) in order for immortality and eternal life to occur. I suggest that this is an outmoded and unnecessary belief. The soul (spirit, not the combined spirit and body) is immortal. In and of itself it is perfectly capable of accomplishing God's plan, Its need for a physical body was only temporary. A physical body actually hinders a soul. Over and over again in NDE accounts there are statements of how free a person feels without a physical body. However, if for some reason a bodily form is needed, it can be imagined (Swedenborg even has the spirit beings in his celestrial realm engaging in sex). A physical body can even be materialized, if that should become necessary, as I have mentioned in a previous thread. But the soul, not the physical body, (the nurturing of the soul not the body) should be the focus of our attention. At least that is the way I see it.

[tld]

This is not inconsistent with the LDS view of the Spirit World. The state of hell, for example, is wherever the soul is who has a bright recollection of all his guilt. He sees his true self and doesn't like the man in the mirror. LDS believe that we cleave unto our own - in other words, we gather with others who are like us in the Spirit World - it's the same kind of self-sorting you describe. The only difference I see is that we believe the possibility for redemption extends beyond the grave.

What do you mean "redemption extends beyond the grave?" The words redeem and ransom are often used together. They seem to describe a situation in which we were under the control of the devil and through a redeeming ransom we come under the control of Jesus Christ. This (the effect of the atonement) apparently does not happen until the resurrection (2 Nephi 9:10-12). I have difficulty reconciling this with what actually happens when we die. The resurrection has not yet occurred, but many, if not most, of the souls in the spirit world seem to be free of the devil's control.

[mercyngrace]

What do you mean "redemption extends beyond the grave?"

The resurrection is only part of the atonement. The spiritual aspects should be visible in our lives already. Once we repent and come unto Christ we should be steadily becoming more free of the power of Satan. The knowledge of our redemption and of the love of God, when we truly embrace those things, breed within us a desire to do good continually and to emulate the Lord. In a very real sense, our eyes are opened.

For those who do not embrace that knowledge and love until the Spirit World, the redemptive price has been paid (so to speak) but the acceptance of the gift still has to happen. The power of the redemption to change us is everlasting so a spirit in the next world, if his eyes are opened, would have power over the adversary.

[tld]

The resurrection is only part of the atonement. The spiritual aspects should be visible in our lives already. Once we repent and come unto Christ we should be steadily becoming more free of the power of Satan. The knowledge of our redemption and of the love of God, when we truly embrace those things, breeds within us a desire to do good continually and to emulate the Lord. In a very real sense, our eyes are opened.

For those who do not embrace that knowledge and love until the Spirit World, the redemptive price has been paid (so to speak) but the acceptance of the gift still has to happen. The power of the redemption to change us is everlasting so a spirit in the next world, if his eyes are opened, would have power over the adversary.

How do you reconcile what you say with 2 Nephi 9:7-12?

[tld]

The resurrection is only part of the atonement. The spiritual aspects should be visible in our lives already. Once we repent and come unto Christ we should be steadily becoming more free of the power of Satan. The knowledge of our redemption and of the love of God, when we truly embrace those things, breed within us a desire to do good continually and to emulate the Lord. In a very real sense, our eyes are opened.

Why couldn't living the Golden Rule accomplish the same changes?

[tld]

The resurrection is only part of the atonement. The spiritual aspects should be visible in our lives already. Once we repent and come unto Christ we should be steadily becoming more free of the power of Satan. The knowledge of our redemption and of the love of God, when we truly embrace those things, breed within us a desire to do good continually and to emulate the Lord. In a very real sense, our eyes are opened.

Why couldn't living the Golden Rule bring about the same changes?

[mercyngrace]

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement

[Lamanite]

Very good stuff. It's best for me not to comment until I can categorize and provide structure to some of these idea's.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[tld]

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement

[wenglund]

All I'm suggesting is that the scriptures aren't as cut and dried on this matter as it might seem.

Isn't that the truth. The scriptures allow enough interpretive latitude to accomodate various conjectures about the afterlife.

As it happens, I prefer the more tradition view, though I can respect what others have said on this enlightening thread. I trust, too, that my faith won't be the least bit ill-affected were things to turn out differently than I suppose. As intimated earlier, I have enough on my plate taking care of what I can know and understand in the here and now of mortality to be at peace with letting the future take care of itself, with the intention of crossing that bridge when I come to it.

Besides, my head starts to hurt, and I become somewhat ill-at-ease when I try and speculatively wrap my mind around all the intentionally elusive possibilities beyond the veil.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mercyngrace]

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement

[rockslider]

Besides, my head starts to hurt, and I become somewhat ill-at-ease when I try and speculatively wrap my mind around all the intentionally illusive possibilities beyond the veil.

Exercising personal inspiration is hard work! Speculation can and does have its place. It was fun ... thanks all.

[wenglund]

Exercising personal inspiration is hard work! Speculation can and does have its place. It was fun ... thanks all.

Yes, to everything there is a season. A time to proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, feed the hungry and cloth the naked; and a time to speculate about what may lay beyond the veil. As long as each season is used to better ourselves and help improve the lives of others, and as long as the seasons for the weightier matters are far longer and more mindful than the seasons for the fringe matters, it is good.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[tld]

Mercyngrace,

I tried to respond to your response to my response to your response but it got so complicated that I gave up. For some reason or another I have felt uncomfortable about this whole exchange. Maybe I am feeling what some others have given voice to.

Thanks.

[mercyngrace]

Mercyngrace,

I tried to respond to your response to my response to your response but it got so complicated that I gave up. For some reason or another I have felt uncomfortable about this whole exchange. Maybe I am feeling what some others have given voice to.

Thanks.

tld,

I'm sorry you have felt uncomfortable. For my part, I haven't felt uncomfortable at all nor have I felt the slightest contention from anyone on the thread but I have felt like maybe we simply aren't understanding each other. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding or being unclear. I'm trying to get where you are coming from and explain LDS doctrine as I understand it but I must be missing the point you are making.

MnG

[mercyngrace]

Exercising personal inspiration is hard work! Speculation can and does have its place. It was fun ... thanks all.

It is fun. I figure so long as we all acknowledge what is speculation, it's all good.

[mercyngrace]

I trust, too, that my faith won't be the least bit ill-affected were things to turn out differently than I suppose.

I feel the same way, Wade. However the logistics pan out, I have no doubt I will be standing with the saints and mentioning His loving kindness. And as far as I can tell, that is what really matters.

[mercyngrace]

Why couldn't living the Golden Rule accomplish the same changes?

Sorry, I didn't see this question earlier and I want to answer for the sake of anyone else following the thread.

LDS believe that mortal man is fallen by nature. (Mosiah 3:19) What enables man to be free of his otherwise unfettered self-interest is the recognition that he is loved by God such that God Himself traversed the very depths of hell to save man. "We love Him because He first loves us." Those are the words of Paul. He draws us to Him with everlasting love (Jeremiah). IOW, what makes it possible for us to love and live the Golden Rule to any meaningful degree is that we have experienced the love of God.

[Lamanite]

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be ^asore amazed, and to be ^bvery ^cheavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this ^bcup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

It is my opinion that the Savior had a very unique intellect. In fact, I posit that he had the greatest intellect of any man or women that has ever lived. I would say this also apply's to his spiritual capacity and gifts. These things being considered, I am always amazed that as the beginnings of his sacrifice and suffering began, he was amazed, very heavy, and his soul was excedding sorrowful unto death. I think one answer may be that the intellectual and soulful contemplations can never equal the experience itself. For someone who had never felt the terrible affects of sin, I'm sure it was quite a shock when it all began to descend.

I often ponder my own personal contributions to that great and terrible night. I am deeply touched, repentent, and relieved that there was one such as Him. But it all gets incredibly sorrowful and overwhelming when I consider the multifacited and all encompassing suffering that night.

Any thoughts on the Savior's amazement and sorrow as he approached Gethsemane?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be ^asore amazed, and to be ^bvery ^cheavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this ^bcup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

It is my opinion that the Savior had a very unique intellect. In fact, I posit that he had the greatest intellect of any man or women that has ever lived. I would say this also apply's to his spiritual capacity and gifts. These things being considered, I am always amazed that as the beginnings of his sacrifice and suffering began, he was amazed, very heavy, and his soul was excedding sorrowful unto death. I think one answer may be that the intellectual and soulful contemplations can never equal the experience itself. For someone who had never felt the terrible affects of sin, I'm sure it was quite a shock when it all began to descend.

Any thoughts on the Savior's amazement and sorrow as he approached Gethsemane?

Big UP!

Lamanite

There is a moment when we become cognizant of the reality of a situation. When that situation demands great sacrifice, we are often sore amazed and astonished. In theory, we see what must be done but that place where the rubber meets the road is still an awakening. It would not surprise me to find the Savior experienced such an awakening to the magnitude of His mission as it became a tangible reality. Certainly, there were experiential aspects of the atonement He could not anticipate as evidenced by His emotional query on the cross, "Why hast Thou forsaken me?"

I often ponder my own personal contributions to that great and terrible night. I am deeply touched, repentent, and relieved that there was one such as Him. But it all gets incredibly sorrowful and overwhelming when I consider the multifacited and all encompassing suffering that night.

It was an infinite atonement. What could you add? Would His burden have been less infinite if there were fewer of us?

There is a different way to approach Gethsemane. Instead of contemplating our sinfulness, ponder our worth. He descended below all things because we are worth it. He loved the Father and wanted the Father's will acomplished. He loved us and wanted our safe return home. Does a woman in hard labor blame the baby for the pain or anticipate the joy of encircling her child in the arms of her love?

[Lamanite]

There is a different way to approach Gethsemane. Instead of contemplating our sinfulness, ponder our worth. He descended below all things because we are worth it. He loved the Father and wanted the Father's will acomplished. He loved us and wanted our safe return home. Does a woman in hard labor blame the baby for the pain or anticipate the joy of encircling her child in the arms of her love?

I think that in addition to contemplating our own sinfulness, we should be ever mindful of our worth. I think there is some value in contemplating the "awful arithmetic of the Atonement."

"The divine reproach Jesus felt so exquisitely, because of His meekly standing in for us, fulfilled yet another prophecy: