Atonement Theory

[rockslider]

Wrong about what? The atonement having a purpose (which is what the question was addressing)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I was being sarcastic Wade. I've conversed to extended lengths with tld on this before. Seems to be a bit of a hobby horse for them.

The edited in question was to throw back on tld exactly that suggestion (i.e. the Atonement, ressurection to degrees of glory etc.)

[tld]

We immediately realize that Mormon Doctrine was wrong.

edit:

what if we do not?

Either way the outcome is the same, isn't it?

[rockslider]

tld,

Good statement/question.

If we are talking about the outcome of a given individual, then no.

If we are comparing the outcome of two different individuals who lived their lives to these two different views, then the answer rolls right back around to another highly criticized (but not well understood, even by Mormons) Mormonism

[tld]

tld,

Good statement/question.

If we are talking about the outcome of a given individual, then no.

If we are comparing the outcome of two different individuals who lived their lives to these two different views, then the answer rolls right back around to another highly criticized (but not well understood, even by Mormons) Mormonism

[wenglund]

We have the right to believe that return to the presence of God can only come through the atonement and resurrection, or we can believe that access to God can be achieved directly through progress in the spirit world. If we believe the latter, then the atonement seems to serve no purpose.

This is how I understood your comments, and I thought it a good point that dovetails nicely with mine.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mercyngrace]

We have the right to believe that return to the presence of God can only come through the atonement and resurrection, or we can believe that access to God can be achieved directly through progress in the spirit world. If we believe the latter, then the atonement seems to serve no purpose.

If I understand what you are saying (a big IF), I think you are creating a false dichotomy.

Spiritual progression can ONLY come through the atonement and resurrection. This is not a one or the other proposition. It is a causality. BECAUSE Christ atoned we can progress. BECAUSE He freely gives immortality, we can progress.

The inevitability that 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' illustrates the significance of the the Sacrifiicial Lamb. We must go through Him for by no other name can a man be saved.

Another thing to consider is that Christ's victory over death and hell allow for our salvation.

His perfect example allows for our exaltation. He shows us the way and taught us the will of the Father.

[rockslider]

As is often the case, we have probably misunderstood each other. To the extent that I have contributed to this misunderstanding, I apologize.

Fully accepting your I also apologize for my part in it.

I believe that when we die we will pretty much be the same person we were when we are alive (speaking of our internal disposition and state of mind). This will affect where we find ourselves in the afterlife. Someone who lives a very despicable life will likely find his or her self in outer darkness, while someone who has lived a loving and charitable life will go to the light.

I personally agree, and believe that this would also fit squarely into Mormon Doctrine.

This being said, what if what I wrote in my post is true? That is, what if everyone has the opportunity to progress towards the highest level of the spirit world? Likely it is going to take longer for the spirit being in outer darkness to progress to the highest level in the spirit world than the person who went to the light, but each would have equal opportunity and eternity in which to accomplish this.

This is where the discussion in this thread led to

[tld]

If I understand what you are saying (a big IF), I think you are creating a false dichotomy.

Spiritual progression can ONLY come through the atonement and resurrection. This is not a one or the other proposition. It is a causality. BECAUSE Christ atoned we can progress. BECAUSE He freely gives immortality, we can progress.

The inevitability that 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' illustrates the significance of the the Sacrifiicial Lamb. We must go through Him for by no other name can a man be saved.

Another thing to consider is that Christ's victory over death and hell allow for our salvation.

His perfect example allows for our exaltation. He shows us the way and taught us the will of the Father.

I do not deny you the right to believe this. Even if I did, it would make no difference. The same hold true for an evangelical Christian who believes that only those who accept Jesus as their personal Savior will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell. What I am suggesting is that a person can believe otherwise and still make sense. What I described makes sense -- to me anyway, but likely not to you.

[tld]

As noted above, the resurrection is key in our beliefs, and the Atonement of Christ is the founding principle of that resurrection. If I remember correctly your beliefs do not include a resurrection, and hence part of the purpose of the Atonement (in our beliefs) would have no purpose.

So my first response was a bit snarky and sarcastic, but was also accurate. When I find myself on the other side of the veil of death and realize there is no resurrection, then I will also realize Mormon Doctrine was false (along with all of Christianity).

If however, I find the spirit world to be a waiting place for the resurrection, I will likely be prone to quickly start analyzing myself and the judgment before Christ himself that is between me and that resurrection.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath. Also, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I suspect that both of us will be pleasantly surprised by what we experience when we die. However, having said this, I may be running more of a risk than you.

[rockslider]

Tld,

I'm trying to read between the lines and sense what you are looking for here. You do show respect for others beliefs, and we in turn are hopefully showing respect for yours.

If in our discussions each are edified and grow in our own personal beliefs then that is good, let's explore long, wide and deep. If our intentions are to convert the other, we both know this is not typically productive. If we are seeking validation from others in our beliefs, we may be disappointed.

You seem to be searching, if that is so, my prayers are with you that you will find it. One thing about Mormon Doctrine

[tld]

Tld,

I'm trying to read between the lines and sense what you are looking for here. You do show respect for others beliefs, and we in turn are hopefully showing respect for yours.

If in our discussions each are edified and grow in our own personal beliefs then that is good, let's explore long, wide and deep. If our intentions are to convert the other, we both know this is not typically productive. If we are seeking validation from others in our beliefs, we may be disappointed.

You seem to be searching, if that is so, my prayers are with you that you will find it. One thing about Mormon Doctrine

[rockslider]

Acknowledged, with this caveat: I am not unwilling to challenge a belief system if see it is wanting or if I feel that there is something potentially better, regardless of how well-founded it is in scripture. But there is always the admitted possibility that I am wrong.

Absolutely

[wenglund]

Here is another related question for you all: "Is there a final judgement,and is that judgement final?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rockslider]

Here is another related question for you all: "Is there a final judgement,and is that judgement final?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

1. yes,

2. the crux of our speculations in this thread

[tld]

Here is another related question for you all: "Is there a final judgement,and is that judgement final?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

When a person dies and goes to the spirit world, there is a life review and a self-judgment. As a result of this self-judgment a spirit migrates to that region of the spirit world where he or she finds others of like disposition. This could be a place of light, a place of darkness, or some place in between. I personally find it confusing that there would need to be two judgments when one seems to serve the purpose.

[wenglund]

1. yes,

2. the crux of our speculations in this thread

Doesn't the former entail the latter?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

When a person dies and goes to the spirit world, there is a life review and a self-judgment. As a result of this self-judgment a spirit migrates to that region of the spirit world where he or she finds others of like disposition. This could be a place of light, a place of darkness, or some place in between. I personally find it confusing that there would need to be two judgments when one seems to serve the purpose.

I agree that this may be a part of the final judgement, but I am not prepared to dismiss the Father as judge and the Son as advocate for us with the Father. In other words, I believe, along with LDS scripture, that there will be a formal judgement in conjuction with the informal introspective self-judgement, else what value is the atonement if mercy and justice is of our own personal choosing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rockslider]

Doesn't the former entail the latter?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Semantically, possibly not. For example; every quarter, or semester, college students endure "finals", a test at the end of an era or period.

In my personal speculative theology, I have no problem with a God Head member partaking of courser material - to fall, but of course this deals with an internal progression of dominion, not some aspect of personal growth.

Your thoughts on the need of death/birth cycles, and the slightly modified question "are there multiple final judgments" can quickly led to the really out there, re-incarnation thoughts.

In the end, I'm afraid my traditional training kicks in and a singular final judgment, which is indeed final takes the day.

[mercyngrace]

When a person dies and goes to the spirit world, there is a life review and a self-judgment. As a result of this self-judgment a spirit migrates to that region of the spirit world where he or she finds others of like disposition. This could be a place of light, a place of darkness, or some place in between. I personally find it confusing that there would need to be two judgments when one seems to serve the purpose.

When you were a student, were you judged at the end of each grade or course? Did each level of coursework prepare you for the next? Did some classes have specified prerequisites? Was your transcript judged to verify that you had completed those prerequisites before you entered upper level classes?

We are judged every day by the Holy Spirit and by our own conscience. Often by others, for better or worse. And if the scriptures are any indication, we are judged regularly by God Himself. Righteous judgments are to validate progress or encourage course correction.

The question is not whether there are many judgments but whether there is one grand final judgment en masse or if we all be judged individually once we are prepared to face God. Will we be able to retake the courses we've failed? To put it another way, will the Potter break down and rework the unfit vessels?

*** Christ works in the admissions office. We wouldn't even be in school if it weren't for Him.

[wenglund]

Semantically, possibly not. For example; every quarter, or semester, college students endure "finals", a test at the end of an era or period.

In my personal speculative theology, I have no problem with a God Head member partaking of courser material - to fall, but of course this deals with an internal progression of dominion, not some aspect of personal growth.

Your thoughts on the need of death/birth cycles, and the slightly modified question "are there multiple final judgments" can quickly led to the really out there, re-incarnation thoughts.

In the end, I'm afraid my traditional training kicks in and a singular final judgment, which is indeed final takes the day.

So, to you, the final judgement isn't final in the sense that it is the last time we will ever be judged, but rather the final judgement for the semester of mortal life? In other words, do you believe we will continue to be judged after the Final Judgement?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rockslider]

So, to you, the final judgement isn't final in the sense that it is the last time we will ever be judged, but rather the final judgement for the semester of mortal life? In other words, do you believe we will continue to be judged after the Final Judgement?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No, I was kind of summarizing my previous speculations in this thread, adding in your final judgment question, and my final line in the previous post summarized my conclusion.

More specifically that conclusion is. The "period of this life" is from mortal birth to personal resurrection. This is further divided into two periods; the mortal, and the spirit world. The period of this life is the time for progressing one's self in the attributes of Godliness. Once again, there is a transition out of this period (out of the spirit world for those that have died) to a resurrected state. ALL mankind, with NO exceptions will be resurrected (Atonement of Salvation), and immediately face the Throne of God for their own, personal Judgment, from which their Kingdom of Glory will be realized.

This is where all the speculation was fun, but I'm afraid that is a one time, one pass gate/judgement.

Now my speculative beliefs in the God-Head falling, would also require another resurrection, but there would be no judgment on this time around, as this is already a God.

edit:

I will also add in that I believe there are some levels of final achievement that require experiences obtained in the mortal portion of this life.

[Lamanite]

Here is another related question for you all: "Is there a final judgement,and is that judgement final?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

My belief is that it is not final, in the sense that we are accustomed to. This however is something that I really want to flesh out because I could be wrong or right. It ties itself to atonement theory because one would have to limit the benefits of the atonement and the individuals ability to receive it, thus damning individuals forever, or extending progression for as long as forever lasts.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[tld]

The question is not whether there are many judgments but whether there is one grand final judgment en masse or if we all be judged individually once we are prepared to face God. Will we be able to retake the courses we've failed? To put it another way, will the Potter break down and rework the unfit vessels?

*** Christ works in the admissions office. We wouldn't even be in school if it weren't for Him.

Regarding the life review and self-judgment, I merely summarized what many of those who have had NDEs report. What they don't report is an expectation of a future resurrection and judgment. For Swedenborg, who spent 13 years visiting the spirit world, "The final 'judgment' is our own realization of our individual essential nature as we face our real selves, rather than an evaluation and dictate by a power beyond." I guess we each have to decide on whether to go with what is or with what might be.

[rockslider]

Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that when we die and go to the spirit world we find that we are back where we came from and every spirit being has an opportunity and an infinite amount of time to progress towards the highest levels of the spirit world (heaven), including those in the outer reaches of darkness. What has been the purpose of the atonement?

Coming back to your first statement in this thread. You mention the progression goal is to "progress towards the highest levels of the spirit world(heaven)".

To me, the progression goal is all about learning, knowing and acquiring the attributes of God. Physical locations and associations in "heaven" based on this are secondary and simply the cause/effect result of approaching God, via becoming like him.

Based on studies of NDE's, I don't know if you believe in a God or what role that God may play in the spirit world.

If you do believe in God, then may I suggest that in either of our views of the post mortal life, the key is becoming like God and letting the chips fall where they may in heaven. FWIW, I think your focus is too fixed on the effect and not the cause. Put the spirit world on the back burner for a bit and focus on mortal goals and God.

[mercyngrace]

So, to you, the final judgement isn't final in the sense that it is the last time we will ever be judged, but rather the final judgement for the semester of mortal life? In other words, do you believe we will continue to be judged after the Final Judgement?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There is obviously continued progression in the Spirit World else why do we baptize (endow, seal, etc) for the dead? So the question is whether there is a point in time at which progression through the Spirit World ceases and we are resurrected. (Of course, time is measured only to man which confuses that whole issue...) We also know that the resurrection happens incrementally. We know that at the end of their time in hell, souls will be released from that state clean because the Christ pronounces the entire kingdom "spotless" to His Father. Speaking of hell, Nephi said it was "endless torment", Alma said he endured "eternal torment" in hell ... for THREE DAYS. Jonah spent the same amount of time in "the belly of hell", and D&C 19 says that this whole endless thing has nothing to do with time. The verse you quoted earlier in Alma 34 says the final state of the wicked is to be sealed up to the devil but that only happens to those cast into outer darkness, right, the rest of us inherit glory. So what "final state" is being referred to here? Is it a warning to avoid HELL? Because we know that hell has an end for anyone bound to inherit glory.

I know I'm rambling but there is a point

These verses we use to describe the thundering of a great gavel sometimes apply to the mortal state. For example, Samuel the Lamanite told the Nephites they'd be destroyed and it was everlastingly too late to repent and avoid that mortal consequence of their wickedness. Other times the sense of finality refers to the inescapable pangs of hell those temporarily consigned to that state will suffer while they are subject to the buffetings of Satan. Of course, we already know that repentance is the escape hatch from that place and even murderers will be redeemed from there because David received the promise that his soul would not be left in hell.

All I'm suggesting is that the scriptures aren't as cut and dried on this matter as it might seem.