Does God Appreciate Baptism in Other Churches

[HiJolly]

So, under what circumstances do you think God might encourage someone to join, attend (or even start) a non-LDS Church?

Any circumstance in which an individual will accept further light & knowledge.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Conversion isn't a requirement for Baptism, even for adults. Neither technically is a Testimony, although it is highly encouraged. Simply, To be baptized, you acknowledge the Atonement of the Savior, express your desire to enter into a covenant to dedicate your life to serve Him and be obedient to Him, and you acknowledge your belief that he has delegated proper authority to the Church to act in His name and to express His will. You also express your desire and willingness to help others.

I think that's a reasonable, pragmatic approach, and I don't think that morally speaking there is anything wrong with it. I just think its *better* to actually be converted first.

HiJolly

[David T]

I think that's a reasonable, pragmatic approach, and I don't think that morally speaking there is anything wrong with it. I just think its *better* to actually be converted first.

HiJolly

I'm grateful I didn't wait until I was fully converted to all the principles and commandments I'd been taught before I was baptized. I had a testimony of their truth, but being converted (they become a part of your nature, and will) for many things came much later. And some I'm still working at being converted to.

[cinepro]

THere are probably several. Perhaps the person is not ready for membership in teh LDS church and another church would suite his needs first. Then later he might be ready. Perhaps he is not humble yet. Perhaps he is not.... pick any number of things.

That's an exceedingly interesting theory, in light of the statements made at the First Vision and our ongoing missionary efforts.

I have to admit the idea that God is sending people to the myriad of religions (Hindu, Muslim, Scientologist and all the flavors of Christianity alike) to be totally foreign to anything I've ever heard or read in LDS doctrine. It's very ecumenical (and Universal). But not very LDS.

I suppose I may have been a little less frustrated on my mission if someone in the MTC had taught me that God would be answering the prayers of my investigators, but He might be sending them to the competition.

[Ahab]

I've said it before, but if the LDS Church's claims are true, then the only inspiration God should be giving to anyone in other churches is "Find the nearest LDS Church and join it".

Well, that may be true in regards to which church a person should join, but God gives people inspiration to do all kinds of good things without even mentioning other groups of people, or which they should join, so your idea that God only inspires people to join a specific group of people is way out in left field, generally, overall.

The idea that anyone performing a baptism in another faith might somehow feel "the Spirit" or some form of divine endorsement of the act is preposterous.

I believe God rewards everyone with good thoughts and feelings when they have the desire to do what is good even when what they are actually doing isn't the best possible good they can do.

It's not as if God comes down harshly on all good things of the terrestrial and telestial orders, because those things aren't of the celestial order. There is good, and better, and best, and God gives us inspiration to help us do all good things even if they are not of the celestial order.

The more involved and convicted people become in non-LDS churches, the less likely it is they will ever find and accept the true Gospel and authority to be exalted.

That's not the way it worked for me. I was very happy in another church before I found one that was better, and I believe God lead me to the best one based on my desire to become even better than I was rather than remaining just good enough to get into heaven.

Thus, it is Satan who would benefit most from people's involvement and energies in non-LDS churches, not God.

Certainly, during the dark ages or in places without an LDS presence there would be some benefit to any sort of Christianity. But once the Gospel has been restored and found a local presence, everything changes.

The change was more like an "upgrade" to all of the good things that were possible before the restoration.

It's not as if there was no good on Earth before that moment. There were lots of good people, doing lots of good things, even though the means for becoming the best they could be weren't available to them at that time.

[HiJolly]

That's not the way it worked for me. I was very happy in another church before I found one that was better, and I believe God lead me to the best one based on my desire to become even better than I was rather than remaining just good enough to get into heaven.

The change was more like an "upgrade" to all of the good things that were possible before the restoration.

BINGO!

HiJolly

[cinepro]

BINGO!

HiJolly

So, how often has God led someone out of the LDS Church into a different church because it would be a better fit for them?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That's an exceedingly interesting theory, in light of the statements made at the First Vision and our ongoing missionary efforts.

Is it? please enlighten us all then.

I have to admit the idea that God is sending people to the myriad of religions (Hindu, Muslim, Scientologist and all the flavors of Christianity alike) to be totally foreign to anything I've ever heard or read in LDS doctrine. It's very ecumenical (and Universal). But not very LDS.

Nothing like a mis-representation of what I was trying to communicate. I never said that God is sending people to the myraid of religions. All I did say is that there might be reasons why God would not tell them to join the LDS church today.

I suppose I may have been a little less frustrated on my mission if someone in the MTC had taught me that God would be answering the prayers of my investigators, but He might be sending them to the competition.

Spare me. You know that there are always 3 wills involved when serving a mission. God, the investigator and the missionary. If God doesn't will it it won't happen. Do you disagree? And we both know that the missionaries and the invesigator both have agencey to choose. The missionary can refuse to even go and and find those looking. The investigator can choose not to follow through on the commitments (which was the number one reason I found why investigators did not join the church) and then there is the will of God. I feel you are just trying to be difficult here. I guess that is why you get dubbed "Cynicpro".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, how often has God led someone out of the LDS Church into a different church because it would be a better fit for them?

I am not God. I cannot answer that question. No one has claimed that God has lead some one out of the church. Just that God might not in every instance lead some on to the church first.

[HiJolly]

So, how often has God led someone out of the LDS Church into a different church because it would be a better fit for them?

Couldn't say. But I'm sure its happened. If things are as they appear, I think a reasonably good argument could be made that this is what happened to Shawn McCraney.

HiJolly

[jimbob]

It might help if some people understood the fact that the word "abomination" refers to a corrupted use or perversion of something which God approves of when done correctly.

For example, marriage between a man and a woman is meant to be among the most beautiful of relationships, but a marriage between a man and another man, or between a woman and another woman, is an abomination, by definition, because that's not what God approves of as the correct form of marriage.

An abomination is the taking of something good and making something bad out of it by not doing it in a way that is acceptable to God.

Good intentions aren't enough for God to consider something to be good. The intentions may be good, but the results are always an abomination if the actions do not result in something that is actually good.

Is marriage between a man and a woman conducted outside of the Temple an abomination?

[cinepro]

I believe God rewards everyone with good thoughts and feelings when they have the desire to do what is good even when what they are actually doing isn't the best possible good they can do.

Yes, that's the "light of Christ". Not what I'm talking about.

That's not the way it worked for me. I was very happy in another church before I found one that was better, and I believe God lead me to the best one based on my desire to become even better than I was rather than remaining just good enough to get into heaven.

Just curious, but how did you find the other church in the first place? And how many people from that Church have left and joined you in the LDS Church?

Let's suppose there are 500 people in your old church. Are all 500 incapable of being LDS, so God has sent them there? Were you the only one ready for an "upgrade"? So God sends His spirit to that Church (even when they teach false doctrine), and everyone is happy?

And some of your neighbors might be praying to know which Church they should join, and for some of them God sends them to your old Church, and some get sent to the Jehovah's Witnesses, and some get inspired to become Muslim, and some are inspired to join the LDS Church? And one of them is inspired to start "The New Life Church of the Valley" at the local community center?

It seems to me this is a supremely important theory, and one which should be studied in depth and explained to the Missionary Department. If we can learn how this works, our missionary success could increase exponentially with new programs that can meet the needs of these people who aren't ready for full LDSness.

For example, we could start "Farm Wards" that teach watered down doctrine, and God could inspire people to join those, and then those Wards could help identify people who are ready for "real" baptism and ordinances (and a 3-hour block). We could have non-Christian Farm Wards, polytheist Farm Wards, new-age Farm Wards. The works.

That way, people wouldn't get stuck in churches that poison the well against upgrading. And LDS could drastically increase our market share by serving these segments that aren't ready for the undiluted Gospel.

[David T]

I was raised in the Assemblies of God. While growing up in that Church, I never prayed to know if that was God's true Church. The thought never occured to me. In fact, I remember growing up having the distinct thought, "Wow, it's cool that of all the Churches in the world, I happened to be born in the right one.". I didn't ask, I just assumed, 'cause it seemed okay.

It's when I specifically asked if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the Lord's Church that I received specific direction leading me forward and upward.

Based on my own experience, and the experience of talking to many others, I think the number of people praying to know which Church is True is far less than those moving into a new area praying to find the Church that will best fit their current beliefs and worship styles. The Lord gives the answers to the questions you specifically ask.

[Ceeboo]

Note to self when logging on this thread:

Read all of HiJolly's posts at least twice.

Quickly scan the majority of the other posts once.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[jimbob]

Cinepro said...

For example, we could start "Farm Wards" that teach watered down doctrine, and God could inspire people to join those, and then those Wards could help identify people who are ready for "real" baptism and ordinances (and a 3-hour block). We could have non-Christian Farm Wards, polytheist Farm Wards, new-age Farm Wards. The works.

He he he...c'mon ya'all, that's some good stuff.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is marriage between a man and a woman conducted outside of the Temple an abomination?

Nope. Were did you get that idea. Have you read the bible?

[Brenda]

I agree with the OP that God appreciates ANY effort do do His will, even if that effort is misguided. He judges by the heart. As for infant baptism, IMO He says the practice is abominable, not the innocent follower.

In case this hasn't already been said here, infant baptism is insulting to God. AS IF He would damn the innocent. What kind of God does that?

[cinepro]

Cinepro said...

He he he...c'mon ya'all, that's some good stuff.

If the theories presented in this thread are accurate, it would actually work.

Companies are always trying to develop new "brands" to reach new markets, or different product lines to reach different people. If God is really inspiring people to join non-LDS churches because those churches are a better fit, then there is no reason the LDS Church can't create new brands by starting other churches for these people. As long as the other "brands" of the Church are profitable, it would only serve to strengthen the overall Church.

It seems the biggest problem we have right now is an inefficient transition between the "training wheels"/partial truth churches that God sends people to and the LDS Church. The feeder Churches are set up in competition, so there is a lot of friction to overcome. If we could overcome this friction by making it a cooperative venture, things would be much better.

[Ahab]

Yes, that's the "light of Christ". Not what I'm talking about.

O-kay. I thought you were talking about God inspiring people to do something, generally.

Apparently I was mistaken.

Just curious, but how did you find the other church in the first place?

Long story short, a woman who had returned from her mission for the Church came with her Mother to visit her Mother's brother who was a member of that church I was a member of then, and I struck up a conversation with the daugher/returned missionary who told me about it.

And how many people from that Church have left and joined you in the LDS Church?

None that I know of, but I haven't been keeping track. That happened in Arizona just before I moved to Oregon, and I haven't been back since then.

Let's suppose there are 500 people in your old church.

If that's the case, it has grown a lot, because there were only about 100 when I left them.

Are all 500 incapable of being LDS, so God has sent them there?

No. They're all capable of being LDS, if they find out about LDS and want to be.

For now, those who are there have simply decided to be there.

Were you the only one ready for an "upgrade"?

Out of that group that was there when I was there? I don't really know.

So God sends His spirit to that Church (even when they teach false doctrine), and everyone is happy?

As happy as they know how to be, I think.

I think I was pretty happy there, while I was there, not realizing I was missing out on anything, and then someone came along later who told me something that I didn't know I was missing.

And some of your neighbors might be praying to know which Church they should join, and for some of them God sends them to your old Church...

You think so, huh. I don't think God sends any of them to those other churches. He may, but I don't think so.

I was a member of that other church because all of the "religious" people in my family were members of that one, and I just went along with the flow until God showed me which church was his church.

... some get sent to the Jehovah's Witnesses, and some get inspired to become Muslim, and some are inspired to join the LDS Church? And one of them is inspired to start "The New Life Church of the Valley" at the local community center?

You seem to think God inspires others to join those other churches, specifically, but I don't think that's how it works. I think God helps them to see the good in those churches, or the good in the people who are members of those churches, but without personally endorsing the churches, as organizations.

I think there is good in most people on this planet, but that doesn't mean all of the organizations people form together by mutual association are sanctioned by God as his organization or body of people.

It seems to me this is a supremely important theory, and one which should be studied in depth and explained to the Missionary Department. If we can learn how this works, our missionary success could increase exponentially with new programs that can meet the needs of these people who aren't ready for full LDSness.

For example, we could start "Farm Wards" that teach watered down doctrine, and God could inspire people to join those, and then those Wards could help identify people who are ready for "real" baptism and ordinances (and a 3-hour block). We could have non-Christian Farm Wards, polytheist Farm Wards, new-age Farm Wards. The works.

That way, people wouldn't get stuck in churches that poison the well against upgrading. And LDS could drastically increase our market share by serving these segments that aren't ready for the undiluted Gospel.

I think God and his people are focused more on helping other people find their way to the Celestial kingdom, while people find their way to the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms on their own.

If God and his people are going to start an organization, we might as well form the best one there is.

[DonBradley]

In response to the question in the OP, Moroni 8 only offers the following as the actual words of Christ: "Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me." The revelatory portion only says that children don't need baptism, and why. Moroni concludes from this that it is "solemn mockery before God" to baptize infants, arguing that it is blasphemous (i.e., denying God's goodness and mercy) to suppose that he would damn children without baptism.

With Moroni, I doubt very much that God appreciates the imputation to Him of such heartlessness. Nor do I think He would find that such beliefs improve His children's relationship with Him. But does He appreciate it when people, holding such beliefs, try to save infants' souls? How could he not approve of that intention? It is the belief that He would damn children, not sincere Christians' intent to save them, that Moroni critiques. And I, for one, could not disagree.

Does God approve of the intention behind non-LDS baptisms generally? I believe that question is answered right here:

D&C 35:

3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto my servant Sidney, I have looked upon thee and thy works. I have heard thy prayers, and prepared thee for a greater work.

4 Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold thou wast sent forth, even as John, to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knewest it not.

5 Thou didst baptize by water unto repentance, but they received not the Holy Ghost;

6 But now I give unto thee a commandment, that thou shalt baptize by water, and they shall receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, even as the apostles of old.

Sidney's previous work, which included baptism unto repentance, is likened to the preparatory work of John the Baptist. Though without saving power in itself, it led to repentance and led people toward a fuller restoration.

Cheers,

Don