The Most Widespread Form of Idolatry Today

[blooit]

My meetings with my neighbor continue, and I am absolutely blown away with how respectful he has been of our differences of belief. One phrase that he used regularly and that I have heard many time concerns me though. You could summarize this stand as, "No I will not pray to God to know the truth; The Bible IS the word of God and so only my ability to align what you say with the Bible determines what is true."

When was God replaced by the Bible? I see this as a graven image, where God is literally standing there waiting to speak to his children, and like the Pharisees and Sadducees, THE LAW has become preeminent above God himself, while in this case it is "The Word."

The parallels are striking IMHO.

[the narrator]

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don't go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet he knows the way.

Mormons aren't all that different.

"No I will not pray to God to know the truth; The Prophet IS the source of the word of God and so only my ability to align what you say with the Prophet determines what is true.""

BTW... the whole line about Christians refusing to pray to God for answers is a straw man.

[blackstrap]

And what does the prophet tell you to do to learn the truth ???

[the narrator]

And what does the prophet tell you to do to learn the truth ???

Pray to know align myself with the Prophet?

Pray to know that the Prophet is right?

At least that is what I seem to learn at church each Sunday.

[the narrator]

Pray to know align myself with the Prophet?

Pray to know that the Prophet is right?

At least that is what I seem to learn at church each Sunday.

My main point is that the OP was just a bunch of nonsense. It's just an ignorant attempt to criticize other Christians by rephrasing of the very straw man directed at us Mormons.

[blooit]

My main point is that the OP was just a bunch of nonsense. It's just an ignorant attempt to criticize other Christians by rephrasing of the very straw man directed at us Mormons.

We are encouraged to pray about anything the prophets says that we feel we need verification for . .

As far as the OP - a straw man is a misrepresentation of an argument. Since you weren't present in our discussion tonight, I'll forgive you for not knowing what happened, but this message:

"The obvious answer is, there is no need to pray about anything that is not Biblical and is outside of God

[Anijen]

But praying is biblical.

[the narrator]

We are encouraged to pray about anything the prophets says that we feel we need verification for . .

As far as the OP - a straw man is a misrepresentation of an argument. Since you weren't present in our discussion tonight, I'll forgive you for not knowing what happened, but this message:

"The obvious answer is, there is no need to pray about anything that is not Biblical and is outside of God

[the narrator]

We are encouraged to pray about anything the prophets says that we feel we need verification for . .

As far as the OP - a straw man is a misrepresentation of an argument. Since you weren't present in our discussion tonight, I'll forgive you for not knowing what happened, but this message:

"The obvious answer is, there is no need to pray about anything that is not Biblical and is outside of God

[hagoth7]

...I see this as a graven image, where God is literally standing there waiting to speak to his children...

[merits a respectful pause]......

Pride is perhaps the most widespread form of idolatry today.

It simply has many expressions.

[blooit]

That website (which has ridiculous type) doesn't say the same thing that you are claiming your neighbor said. The website seems to basically say that if one has accepted that the Bible is God's word, then to pray to that same God regarding the truthfulness of something that contradicts that word would be nonsense. The logic is actually pretty fair. However, it depends on several premises, including whether or no the BofM contradicts or goes contrary to the Bible, or if the Bible is the only book of divine scripture.

Would you pray to find out if Muhammed (PBUH) was God's last and greatest prophet? Would you pray to find out if killing babies was ok? Would you pray to see if it was okay to steal a new iPad?

Most Mormons would say that you shouldn't pray about those things, because God has already revealed the truth of it, and thus to pray and question is to to go against God.

When was the last time that you were in church that you should pray to find out that the Prophet was wrong?

My claim: "No I will not pray to God to know the truth; The Bible IS the word of God and so only my ability to align what you say with the Bible determines what is true."

The Website: ""The obvious answer is, there is no need to pray about anything that is not Biblical and is outside of God

[blooit]

I thought God "gave to all men liberally" and "upbraided not" -

sounds pretty biblical to me

[blooit]

Also, you titled the thread "the most widespread form of idolatry today" which seems to imply that you were making a claim that goes far far far (in fact, far enough to be the "most widespread") far beyond the conversation you had with your neighbor tonight.

While your neighbor may be a few beans short of a pod and sincerely believes that all praying to God for knowledge is unbiblical, to call it a widespread form of idolatry is just silliness. As such, it is merely a straw man--a fake representation to beat on.

I replied before I read this - sorry -

I stand by the original topic heading - it could very well be. If we turn to anything other than God himself as the ultimate source of truth, we are worshipping a graven image, and I have had several friends try to justify this with John 1:1 - "And the Word was God" and literally say there is no difference between the two.

(BTW - in defense of my friend, I think he is one of the more moderate I have worked with.)

[blooit]

The Pharisees and Sudducees sure thought they were biblical (old testament biblical) - and turned to "the word" while God was standing right in front of them . . .

and history continues to repeat itself today

[the narrator]

The Pharisees and Sudducees sure thought they were biblical (old testament biblical) - and turned to "the word" while God was standing right in front of them . . .

and history continues to repeat itself today

Blooit, I am the new prophet. The first president and qof12 in Salt Lake are apostates.

Will you sincerely... I mean really sincerely... I mean fasting and heartfelt on your knees sincerely... pray to God and ask if I am his true prophet on the earth?

Will you do that Blooit?

[DonBradley]

Blooit,

Agreed.

By what standard did your neighbor measure the Bible itself in concluding that it was true? He can't just believe the Bible because it says it's true, because that would be circular. So before he could accept the Bible as a standard for measuring truth he would need to measure (or to have measured) the Bible itself by some other standard. If you can get him to articulate just what that standard is, outside of "it says so" and "I was told so," then challenge him to apply the same standard to the Book of Mormon. Why not?

Don

[bjw]

What I have noticed when trying to talk to EVs about anything theology oriented, and I also noticed this while I was an EV, is that many of them honestly do not know how the Bible was put together. They simply think that God put it all together intact, that it was kept together by God over the years until it was completed, and God pronounced it completed by saying we shouldn't add to or take away from it.

I have an aunt that's a charismatic/pentacostal and she read the Book of Mormon. I asked her for her opinion and she said she genuinely believes that Joseph Smith had the First Vision, and that the Book of Mormon was really on the gold plates. However, she said she couldn't become a Mormon because the BoM cannot be considered scripture. She said God completed the Bible and nothing else can be placed equal to it. She said the BoM and First Vision should just be looked at as pentacostal experiences but a separate church should not be started that uses the BoM as additional scripture.

If you were to tell some of these people how the Bible was put together most wouldn't believe it. They don't look at it as 66 individual books that were collected. They don't realize that many books were not included, that it was decided in a council which books to include. In college classes I was always told that these councils were inspired by God and he knew which books he wanted to include.

When you think about it, there's nothing like the D&C in the Bible that actually gives a step-by-step break down of how to run a church, because it wasn't intended to be that. Paul's Epistles, for instance, were intended to answer questions churches had and guard them against some heresies of the day. Nowhere does the Bible not allow additional revelation or scripture.

The best approach I've found when talking to EVs is to first go to the verse in the Book of Revelation about adding to or taking away. Show them it refers to "this book of prophecy" which was composed not knowing it would be later included in a compilation known as "the Bible." Then, explain to them the Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 37 passages about the BoM. They still find it all hard to digest, but you will get more ground if you get that issue out of the way.

Many EV teachers thrive on this doctrine because they build many of their doctrinal systems by hopscotching through the Bible, taking one verse from one book, one from another, to prove a point. It also helps to know which EV teacher or denomination they follow. If they are charismatic additional revelation is easy to explain. Its best to explain things from a historical perspective, and always counter their arguments using the Bible since they don't use our other 3 scriptures. "Hidden Treasures of Knowledge" by Stephen Morgan has an excellent chart toward the end of the book that tells where all major doctrines of the Restoration can be found in the Bible.

[the narrator]

What I have noticed when trying to talk to EVs about anything theology oriented, and I also noticed this while I was an EV, is that many of them honestly do not know how the Bible was put together.

Sounds like most Mormons I know. I mean, let's be honest, how many Mormons out there (including on this forum) know anything about the documentary hypothesis and other issues concerning Bible authorship.

How many Mormons have any clue that the vast majority of the Bible wasn't authored by the persons it claims to have been authored by.

My bet is that most Mormons accept the Gospels as being first-hand accounts and are unaware that none of them were written by authors who actually knew Jesus or witnessed the events.

My bet is that most Mormons accept all of the epistles and Revelation as being written by their purported authors, not realizing that besides a handful of Pauline epistles, they weren't written by the person (Paul, Peter, James, John) that they claim to have been written by.

While I am sure that many evangelicals share the same naivet

[bjw]

Sounds like most Mormons I know. I mean, let's be honest, how many Mormons out there (including on this forum) know anything about the documentary hypothesis and other issues concerning Bible authorship.

No one really knows for sure who wrote the different texts, its just a matter of faith that its written by who it claims its written by. Mormons are different in that they have this faith, while still believing the Bible is not complete as it stands, that some things were left out. I don't think either side really disputes the authorship, just whether or not there is no revelation besides the Bible.

[the narrator]

No one really knows for sure who wrote the different texts,

But is is pretty clear who didn't write the texts, those who they are mostly attributed to.

its just a matter of faith that its written by who it claims its written by.

why have faith in something not true?

I don't think either side really disputes the authorship, just whether or not there is no revelation besides the Bible.

Actually many Christian recognize the authorship issues, far more than Mormons.

[USU78]

Actually many Christian recognize the authorship issues, far more than Mormons.

CFR

[the narrator]

CFR

My own observations and experiences studying Mormonism and Christianity as a graduate student.

[blooit]

Blooit, I am the new prophet. The first president and qof12 in Salt Lake are apostates.

Will you sincerely... I mean really sincerely... I mean fasting and heartfelt on your knees sincerely... pray to God and ask if I am his true prophet on the earth?

Will you do that Blooit?

I understand your point I think - that we can't necessarily pray over every claim ever made. Here is where I think there is a difference. I have already prayed about your claim. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that President Monson is the prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have affirmed and reaffirmed that, which automatically negates your claim. However, if I "lacked wisdom" and wasn't sure if your claim might just be true, I do not think I would offend God by asking.

[the narrator]

I understand your point I think - that we can't necessarily pray over every claim ever made. Here is where I think there is a difference. I have already prayed about your claim. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that President Monson is the prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have affirmed and reaffirmed that, which automatically negates your claim. However, if I "lacked wisdom" and wasn't sure if your claim might just be true, I do not think I would offend God by asking.

I believe that this is the exactly the same point that your neighbor and other Christians are trying to make. In their view, they have already received a witness by God that the Bible is the only and closed canon of scripture. For them to pray to God about the BofM would be to go against what God has already told them. To use your words, they could just as easily say: The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the Bible is the only scriptural word of God . I have affirmed and reaffirmed that, which automatically negates your claim about the BofM also being scripture from God.

[Lightbearer]

I believe that this is the exactly the same point that your neighbor and other Christians are trying to make. In their view, they have already received a witness by God that the Bible is the only and closed canon of scripture. For them to pray to God about the BofM would be to go against what God has already told them. To use your words, they could just as easily say: The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the Bible is the only scriptural word of God . I have affirmed and reaffirmed that, which automatically negates your claim about the BofM also being scripture from God.

So in other words:

(2 Nephi 29:3-11) "And because my words shall hiss forth