Following Up on Yesterday's Lesson

[wenglund]

Hey Mortal Man,

Since you posed the question for this thread, I am wondering if you were personally "shocked" by the supposed difference between how you undserstood the LDS lesson manual and what was written in the FAIR, FARMS, and Ensign articles?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Daniel Peterson]

Yesterday in priesthood and RS meetings, we read in chapter 10 of the student lesson manual that

[Mortal Man]

I have never watched an episode of the Brady Bunch, and, frankly, have no interest in doing so.

Ahhh, so we have finally uncovered your problem. I'm afraid there's not much I can do to help you until you watch the episode I linked to. To speed your habilitation you could sing along with the theme song.

[Mortal Man]

Hey Mortal Man,

Since you posed the question for this thread, I am wondering if you were personally "shocked" by the supposed difference between how you undserstood the LDS lesson manual and what was written in the FAIR, FARMS, and Ensign articles?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

My story is long and painful, but yes, I was and am "shocked" (in a manner of speaking) at many of the things on the FAIR/FARMS sites.

[volgadon]

Ahhh, so we have finally uncovered your problem. I'm afraid there's not much I can do to help you until you watch the episode I linked to. To speed your habilitation you could sing along with the theme song.

While we are waiting, and just before Dante's destination of choice freezes over, perhaps you could show me where the lesson manuals say that the BoA is central to the resotred gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Mortal Man]

Before he sneers too much at "semantics," he might want to try to understand what contradiction means, and why the statements quoted aren't, in fact, contradictory at all.

Hi Dan, now that you're here, could you please explain to volgadon and Vance what lesson Greg Brady learned about 'exact words'?

Is there any reason why we should take Mr. Dehlin's claim seriously?

Nah, the church is better off without all those pesky "questioners" and so-called "truthseekers" who can be so irritating. I'm sorry if any of them have bothered you.

[Mortal Man]

While we are waiting, and just before Dante's destination of choice freezes over, perhaps you could show me where the lesson manuals say that the BoA is central to the resotred gospel of Jesus Christ.

I freely admit that no lesson manual refers to the "resotred" gospel.

[wenglund]

My story is long and painful, but yes, I was and am "shocked" (in a manner of speaking) at many of the things on the FAIR/FARMS sites.

Okay...this is good to know since now we can address this issue in relation to a real live participant here rather than a hypothetical "young sister" or so-called "Chapel Mormon".

In terms of your OP, why do you suppose you personally were "shocked" while many of us LDS here (many of whom qualify as "Chapel Mormons" according to Shade's bogus test) weren't disturbed by the FAIR and FARMS and Ensign articles in the least? What is there about about your way of thinking that rendered you vulnerable to being "shocked" by clarifying information, whereas others of us found the same information to be enlightening?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mathilde]

Okay...this is good to know since now we can address this issue in relation to a real live participant here rather than a hypothetical "young sister" or so-called "Chapel Mormon".

In terms of your OP, why do you suppose you personally were "shocked" while many of us LDS here (many of whom qualify as "Chapel Mormons" according to Shade's bogus test) weren't disturbed by the FAIR and FARMS and Ensign articles in the least? What is there about about your way of thinking that rendered you vulnerable to being "shocked" by clarifying information, whereas others of us found the same information to be enlightening?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Is there something wrong with the word "shocked"? Does the fact that someone like me might have been shocked, surprised, startled to read FAIR information mean that I have some sort of wrong "way of thinking" as opposed to others' way of thinking? You have real live participants here, you really do.

[cinepro]

While we are waiting, and just before Dante's destination of choice freezes over, perhaps you could show me where the lesson manuals say that the BoA is central to the resotred gospel of Jesus Christ.

The fact that the Book of Joseph was never "translated" would indicate to me that the writings on the papyrus aren't central to much of anything.

[Deborah]

Nah, the church is better off without all those pesky "questioners" and so-called "truthseekers" who can be so irritating. I'm sorry if any of them have bothered you.

What an interesting comment in light of the fact that you have pretty much said that the church is better off without all those Fair and Apologetic questioners and truthseekers.

[Scott Lloyd]

Is there something wrong with the word "shocked"? Does the fact that someone like me might have been shocked, surprised, startled to read FAIR information mean that I have some sort of wrong "way of thinking" as opposed to others' way of thinking? You have real live participants here, you really do.

Perhaps you could articulate why one should find it so shocking if, in fact, the new or more nuanced understanding really has no negative impact on belief in the character of the Book of Abraham as holy writ, part of the scriptural canon of the Latter-day Saints, translated by Joseph Smith from the Egyptian papyri that came into his possession, etc.

[Deborah]

Is there something wrong with the word "shocked"? Does the fact that someone like me might have been shocked, surprised, startled to read FAIR information mean that I have some sort of wrong "way of thinking" as opposed to others' way of thinking? You have real live participants here, you really do.

Serious question, why would you be shocked that with all the tools at our hands, which Joseph didn't have, some suggest that the actual papyrus might have been a later copy? This in no way discredits its authenticity or value. Joseph received some obviously ancient documents which recorded the history of Abraham. Without dating techniques it would be natural to assume that they might actually have been penned by Abraham. And that's assuming that Joseph actually even thought that.

You do realize that the New Testament authors wrote long after the fact of the actual appearance of the Savior and for all we know the scrolls on which the Bible is based were also later transcriptions of older documents?

The BOA is an exquisite work, one I love to read. It has some profound doctrine. To get hung up on it's origins when the divinity of it is so obvious seems to be losing sight of the big picture.

[wenglund]

Is there something wrong with the word "shocked"?

I redily accept that the word was used correctly.

Does the fact that someone like me might have been shocked, surprised, startled to read FAIR information mean that I have some sort of wrong "way of thinking" as opposed to others' way of thinking?

I don't know. At this point, I am just trying to determine the difference in the thinking. Once that is clarified, then we can explore whether the way you and Mortal Man thought, which brought about your shock on this isssue, is a way to think that works in your best interest or not.

You have real live participants here, you really do.

Hopefully the real live participants can move past this kind of defensive reaction and actually answer the question that I asked.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mortal Man]

Okay...this is good to know since now we can address this issue in relation to a real live participant here rather than a hypothetical "young sister" or so-called "Chapel Mormon".

In terms of your OP, why do you suppose you personally were "shocked" while many of us LDS here (many of whom qualify as "Chapel Mormons" according to Shade's bogus test) weren't disturbed by the FAIR and FARMS and Ensign articles in the least? What is there about about your way of thinking that rendered you vulnerable to being "shocked" by clarifying information, whereas others of us found the same information to be enlightening?

I yield my time to mathilde.

[wenglund]

I yield my time to mathilde.

That's convenient.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

While we are waiting, and just before Dante's destination of choice freezes over, perhaps you could show me where the lesson manuals say that the BoA is central to the resotred gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's not a "lesson manual", but this is an interesting appraisal of the BoA for LDS audiences:

Among the invaluable records the Lord promised would be restored in the latter days (see 1 Ne. 13:39; D&C 9:2), the book of Abraham, given through the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a unique and priceless gem in our treasury of revealed scripture.

Truly, it is a most remarkable book

[Daniel Peterson]

I was and am "shocked" (in a manner of speaking) at many of the things on the FAIR/FARMS sites.

I find that weird, and . . . shocking.

Hi Dan, now that you're here, could you please explain to volgadon and Vance what lesson Greg Brady learned about 'exact words'?

No. Not if doing so will require me to watch nearly eleven minutes of The Brady Bunch. That would be approximately 10.5 minutes more of the show than I've ever managed to endure previously, and I don't think it worth the risk.

Anyway, I haven't followed this thread beyond its opening post, and have utterly no idea what your "exact words" issue is.

Nah, the church is better off without all those pesky "questioners" and so-called "truthseekers" who can be so irritating. I'm sorry if any of them have bothered you.

Are you suffering from the delusion that only people who share your opinions seek truth?

[Pahoran]

Your entire line of reasoning shines out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.

ROFL! George Bernard Shaw on the Prince of Wales, according to Monty Python.

I see you are a scholar of rare cultural attainments.

Regards,

Pahoran

[volgadon]

Anyway, I haven't followed this thread beyond its opening post, and have utterly no idea what your "exact words" issue is.

When called upon by myself to show where the church lesson manuals state that the BoA is central to the resotred gospel of Jesus christ, all he could do was quote an Ensign article which, true enough, had the words center, central and centered, but never, not even once, did they appear in the right context.

His argument stands as a masterpiece of desperate clutching at straws in futile support of an argument that hasn't a leg to stand on.

[volgadon]

ROFL! George Bernard Shaw on the Prince of Wales, according to Monty Python.

I see you are a scholar of rare cultural attainments.

Regards,

Pahoran

As are you. I was beginning to wonder if my allusion would go unnoticed.

[Mortal Man]

That's convenient.

Oh very well, I'll respond to your query on condition that you answer my Brady Bunch question.

[volgadon]

Now that is convenient.

[mathilde]

Mortal Man said that his point was that the apologetic websites tell a different story than the church manuals.

I do remember being surprised to read that scholars including LDS scholars believed that the age of the papyri was nearly 2000 years after Abraham lived. I do understand the argument now that there is often a difference between a piece of writing and the age of whatever it was physically written on, but I had to adapt my long-standing impression that the book of Abraham was not "by his own hand" in the sense that I thought it had been. Reading articles such as "Book of Abraham 201" by Mike Ash made me begin to be aware of what critics were saying. I had taken the book of Abraham and its introductory paragraph and the illustrations of the facsimiles at face value until reading over at FAIR and realizing what a complicated issue it was. I don't recall any experience or discussion at church that ever made me aware of the controversies mentioned in the FAIR articles. Your wards/branches and your experiences in them are no doubt very different from mine; on the other hand, I responded to this thread because I don't think Mortal Man and I are the lone voices who think that there can be a disconnect between what is in the scriptures and the manuals, and what is offered at FAIR.

I also will add that how closely and accurately these texts were translated matters greatly. The content is important. I want to know where it came from, since for example it is from Abraham 1: 20-27, one of the few scriptural passages to discuss lineage and race as conditions for the priesthood. Perhaps I misunderstood that too.

[Mortal Man]

No. Not if doing so will require me to watch nearly eleven minutes of The Brady Bunch. That would be approximately 10.5 minutes more of the show than I've ever managed to endure previously, and I don't think it worth the risk.

I find that weird, and . . . shocking.

Are you suffering from the delusion that only people who share your opinions seek truth?

Nope.

Now, if you had asked me if only people who share my opinions have found the truth...