Following Up on Yesterday's Lesson

[Mortal Man]

Yesterday in priesthood and RS meetings, we read in chapter 10 of the student lesson manual that

[Maidservant]

The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ... the Church does not rise and fall on the veracity of the Book of Abraham... The Book of Abraham is an appendage. In importance, it ranks below the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants

[Scott Lloyd]

Yesterday in priesthood and RS meetings, we read in chapter 10 of the student lesson manual that

[Mortal Man]

And your point is?

My point is that the apologetic websites tell a radically different story than the lesson manuals. I'm not the first person to make this observation. Here is Dehlin's full statement.

I have personally and directly counseled with over 300 people struggling in their LDS faith over the past 2.5 years (face-to-face lunches, home visits, phone calls, and email exchanges). I can tell you with strong certainty (and even with some data) that in many, many cases -- the FAIR/FARMS approach has actually accelerated people's ultimate disaffection from the church. I hear this WEEKLY from the folks who write me. I know that you folks don't like to hear this -- but I'm not making this up. I hear this story ALL the time -- people turn to FAIR/FARMS for answers, are severely disappointed in the responses (due to ad hominem attacks, or shakey intellectual justifications, or a "blame the victim" mentality, or just plain discourteous treatment) -- and ultimately decide that "if this is the best the church can provide -- I'm outta here".

I've read through your post several times, and I see no undermining going on.

The lesson manual clearly leaves the impression that Abraham wrote his book upon the papyrus that Joseph Smith translated. Are you claiming that FAIR supports this notion?

Where's the conflict between what you quoted from the Gospel Principles manual and the other statements you've cited?

The conflict erupts in the mind of every faithful Mormon who stumbles across FAIR/FARMS material.

Why couldn't Joseph have translated the record from writings not penned personally by Abraham but handed down from him through generations?

I never said he couldn't, but do you think that is clearly explained in the lesson manual?

Quite a leap, don't you think, from saying the book "contains valuable information" to asserting that the Church "rises and falls" on it?

I never made that assertion; but why do you suppose John Gee felt the need to make the counter assertion?

This "Chapel Mormon" is quite comfortable with all of the above quotes.

You are not a Chapel Mormon, you're not even an Internet Mormon; you are a hardened apologist (1 Ne. 17: 45, Moro. 9: 20).

Maybe it's because I know the context.

I'll tell you what, next Fast and Testimony Meeting how about getting up and saying, "I'd like to bear my testimony that the Book of Abraham is true, even though Abraham had nothing to do with the papyrus in Joseph Smith's possession. And, although the Hor scroll was written nearly two millenia after Abraham, I'm sure that the Jewish redactor accurately portrayed Abraham's thought's on the missing section..."?

Let me know how that goes.

[volgadon]

Where does 'not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' negate the book containing 'valuable information'?

[Mortal Man]

Where does 'not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' negate the book containing 'valuable information'?

Where does 'not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' appear in any church lesson manual? Would you ever make that statement in Gospel Doctrine class or Elders/HP meeting?

[hagoth7]

Where does 'not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' appear in any church lesson manual? Would you ever make that statement in Gospel Doctrine class or Elders/HP meeting?

Define what IS central, and your umbrage might diminish.

[Deborah]

I fail to see how "valuable information" and the fact that the church doesn't stand or fall on the BOA presents a conflict. In fact when I heard this first stated at the Fair Conference I thought it an important point. The Book of Mormon is a different matter.

The BOA has very valuable doctrine not found anywhere else. But it is on the Book of Mormon that Joseph's claims rise or fall.

Nor do I see an issue with the papyrus not having been written by Abraham but rather copied from an original source; that doesn't mean it isn't from Abraham or any less scriptural. Much of the Bible is written after the fact and years later; Christ himself never wrote anything, but we read what others wrote about him and consider it valid scripture.

Some people thrive on making a mountains out of a molehills.

[Mortal Man]

Define what IS central, and your umbrage might diminish.

I wouldn't presume to define what is central to the restored gospel, only the prophet can do that.

Nevertheless, I can inform you what the official church position is on this topic:

1) Abraham wrote his autobiography, by his own hand, on the very same papyrus that fell into Joseph's hands. This is just as certain as the fact that Mormon and Moroni wrote on the very same plates that Joseph dug up and kept in a box.

2) Joseph translated Abraham's handwriting into English, just as he translated the Reformed Egyptian, character by character, from the golden plates.

3) "The book of Abraham is a powerful, Christ-centered text that has as its main themes the eternal nature of the Abrahamic covenant, the preeminence of Jesus Christ as represented even in the vast scheme of planets and stars, and the role of Jesus Christ in the three great events of the plan of salvation

[hagoth7]

I wouldn't presume to define what is central to the restored gospel, only the prophet can do that.

From Elder Ballard:

"We accept as fellow Christians all who believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and the Savior of all mankind. Many Christians do not understand that we have much common ground with them. Joseph Smith taught that Jesus Christ is the core of our belief, and everything else is an appendage to it (see Elders

[Mortal Man]

I fail to see how "valuable information" and the fact that the church doesn't stand or fall on the BOA presents a conflict. In fact when I heard this first stated at the Fair Conference I thought it an important point. The Book of Mormon is a different matter.

The BOA has very valuable doctrine not found anywhere else. But it is on the Book of Mormon that Joseph's claims rise or fall.

What prompted you to throw the BoA under the bus?

Nor do I see an issue with the papyrus not having been written by Abraham but rather copied from an original source

You realize, of course, that you're contradicting the Introductory Note and official explanation in the Pearl of Great Price? Why should I believe your words over the church's standard works?

Joseph Smith once encountered a young lady who made comments such as yours; he had this to say regarding her opinion:

12 December 1835

[volgadon]

Where does 'not central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' appear in any church lesson manual?

Where does 'central to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ' appear in any church lesson manual?

Would you ever make that statement in Gospel Doctrine class or Elders/HP meeting?

Not only have I made that commennt, I've also heard it in class and on my mission.

[Calm]

Yesterday in priesthood and RS meetings, we read in chapter 10 of the student lesson manual tha Or suppose an inquisitive young Elder accidentally stumbled across fairlds.org and became exposed to proclamations that:

[William Schryver]

MM:

The lesson manual clearly leaves the impression that Abraham wrote his book upon the papyrus that Joseph Smith translated.

No it doesn't.

Let me repeat for emphasis: NO, IT DOESN'T!

One more time, just to make sure everyone heard clearly: NO, IT DOESN'T!!!

The Gospel Principles Manual, which you cited above, and which I just reviewed online, says precisely what you quoted above:

The Book of Abraham was translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith from a papyrus scroll taken from the Egyptian catacombs.

It DOES NOT say that "Abraham wrote his book upon the papyrus that Joseph Smith translated." It doesn't suggest that in any way. It merely says that the Prophet translated the Book of Abraham from a scroll taken from the Egyptian catacombs. Period.

But your brazen attempt to set up a straw man is duly noted.

I have to say that this is one of your more inept evangelizing efforts of late. I find it very disappointing in comparison to some of your other more recent attempts that had all the hallmarks of careful and deliberate work. This one ... well, it smacks of just being plain lazy.

[mathilde]

Mortal Man also referenced the introduction to The Book of Abraham, "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.

[Scott Lloyd]

Mortal Man also referenced the introduction to The Book of Abraham, "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.

[Deborah]

Joseph may indeed have thought it was written by Abraham's hand but with additional historical study we can say it likely was written at a later time. Or he may have just stated as such because it was from Abraham's own writing, even if later transcribed to another document. In any case I certainly am not questioning it's authenticity or the fact that it was part of Abraham's history and I don't see how saying the papyri were probably at a different period than Abraham in any way discredits it's authenticity. For all we know Abraham's original script was very fragile and worn and some later scholar preserved it by copying it.

When members get hung up on insignificant issues like this it bridges on fanaticism. The text of the book is proof of it's power and truth and how it came about is miraculous no matter what the details are.

[Vance]

This "Chapel Mormon" is quite comfortable with all of the above quotes. Maybe it's because I know the context.

Dittos here!

Edited to add,

Oh wait, per cinepro, I am NOT a "Chapel Mormon".

So then, whatever kind of Mormon I am, I am quite comfortable with all of the above quotes. Maybe it's because I know the context.

[Deborah]

What prompted you to throw the BoA under the bus?

Fortunately my testimony is strong enough to accept new insights or theories and still believe in the truth of the scriptures and the Gospel. God expects us to continue to learn and study and be able to keep in sight the Big Picture of what is really important.

[Scott Lloyd]

They don't have to go to FAIR to find that, they can find it in the Church News: http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html

Sooner or later, Mortal Man is bound to notice who wrote that Church News report of John Gee's presentation last year at the FAIR Conference, so I'll save him some trouble by making his rejoinder for him:

That article was written by Scott Lloyd, a reprobate "apologist" who is hardened in "iniquity" and "past feeling." (See the scriptural references MM gave as links in his response to my first post on this thread.)

Add on: Incidentally, the Church News is previewed each week prior to publication by Church Correlation. On another website, I just ran across a blog entry response written last November that falsely claimed otherwise. The anonymous author obviously did not know what he/she was talking about.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wouldn't presume to define what is central to the restored gospel, only the prophet can do that.

Nevertheless, I can inform you what the official church position is on this topic:

1) Abraham wrote his autobiography, by his own hand, on the very same papyrus that fell into Joseph's hands. This is just as certain as the fact that Mormon and Moroni wrote on the very same plates that Joseph dug up and kept in a box.

2) Joseph translated Abraham's handwriting into English, just as he translated the Reformed Egyptian, character by character, from the golden plates.

3) "The book of Abraham is a powerful, Christ-centered text that has as its main themes the eternal nature of the Abrahamic covenant, the preeminence of Jesus Christ as represented even in the vast scheme of planets and stars, and the role of Jesus Christ in the three great events of the plan of salvation

[William Schryver]

Mortal Man also referenced the introduction to The Book of Abraham, "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.

[Scott Lloyd]

I suppose this means that they dutifully read the Ensign, since, by doing so, they would have learned this kind of information.

What? You mean the Ensign contradicts what Mortal Man claims is "the official Church position"?

[William Schryver]

What? You mean the Ensign contradicts what Mortal Man claims is "the official Church position"?

I think it's obvious that the Ensign has been run by "internet Mormons" for almost 40 years now.

What?

There was no "internet" back then?

Maybe I'll have to rethink my theory ...

[Scott Lloyd]

I think it's obvious that the Ensign has been run by "internet Mormons" for almost 40 years now.

What?

There was no "internet" back then?

Maybe I'll have to rethink my theory ...

If the likes of that "hardened-apologist," "past-all-feeling" Lloyd can infiltrate the inner workings of the Church News, who's to say such a thing could not happen at the Ensign?