Jump to content

Murder


StuddleyG

Recommended Posts

" And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. " (D&C 42: 18)

I read somewhere that this scriputure only refers to members of the church who know better. Or does this scripture refer to anybody who has committed murder? Critics from other Christian faiths criticize this doctrine by saying that it cheapens the atonement. I'm a bit confused by it myself. Does anybody have more insight on the matter?

Link to comment

As I understand it, LDS believe that part of the repentance process is to make restitution to whomever you have wronged. If you steal something, you need to pay for that item. If you gossip, you should apologize and set the record straight. Etc.

Since there is no way to make restitution to a murder victim, it is impossible to fully repent.

Link to comment

" And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. " (D&C 42: 18)

I read somewhere that this scriputure only refers to members of the church who know better. Or does this scripture refer to anybody who has committed murder? Critics from other Christian faiths criticize this doctrine by saying that it cheapens the atonement. I'm a bit confused by it myself. Does anybody have more insight on the matter?

Then what about Nephi?

Link to comment

StuddleyG:

D&C is directed to members of the Church. It is certainly possible to be a murderer and later repent and become a member of the Church and receive forgiveness. We have an example of that in the Book of Mormon.

You're refering to the people of Ammon right? I was never sure if they were true murderers before their conversion.

Link to comment

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Does "us" include murderers?

Link to comment

What else is said in Section 42? Because if we are or are not forgiving people for "killing" or "murder" then we confront the condition of war, for just one example. So the act of ending another human being's life has a lot of shades, and to call something murder depends on so many internal and external conditions.

I think that God will save who he can save. It won't be a kindergarten judgment, but a highly nuanced, just and merciful judgment.

Link to comment

What if you shot a couple guys with a pepper-box pistol?

Or is that self-defense? (Which D&C doesn't seem to make room for.)

What if you scalped a guy and put the top of his head on the tip of your sword m?cuahuitl and threatened to do the same to everyone else?

Link to comment

Murder = shedding innocent blood.

Did Cain murder?

Did Moses murder?

Did King David murder?

Did Nephi murder?

Did King Lamoni murder?

Did Moroni murder?

Edited to add;

Did Elijah murder?

Did Joshua murder?

Link to comment

Murder = shedding innocent blood.

Did Cain murder?

Did Moses murder?

Did King David murder?

Did Nephi murder?

Did King Lamoni murder?

Did Moroni murder?

And, as apologetics tends to do, we continue to move further away from what the scriptures actually say in order to explain them.

So "kill" (which is in the D&C) becomes "murder," which is not in the D&C, which becomes "shedding innocent blood," which is neither in the D&C nor part of the dictionary or legal definition of murder (i.e., the innocence of the victim is irrelevant to murder).

Link to comment

Then what about Nephi?

Are you talking about Nephi killing Laban?

After Laban does this:

1 Nephi 3:12+13 - 12: And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father. 13: And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I will slay thee.

and this:

1 Nephi 3:24-26 - 24: And it came to pass that we went in unto Laban, and desired him that he would give unto us the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, for which we would give unto him our gold, and our silver, and all our precious things. 25: And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our property. 26: And ait came to pass that we did flee before the servants of Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell into the hands of Laban.

So, Laban bears false witness that Laman was a robber, and then Laban steals all the things they offer for the brass plates. Is Nephi a murderer for killing Laban? Not according to the Law of Moses:

Deuteronomy 19:16-21 - 16:
Link to comment

Vance:

Did Cain murder? I believe so.

Did Moses murder? possibly

Did King David murder? Not directly he just provided the conditions for the death. Under our laws that would make him an accessory before the fact.

Did Nephi murder? Not according to the legal structures of the time.

Did King Lamoni murder? I believe so.

Did Moroni murder? I don't believe so.

Edited to add;

Did Elijah murder? Possibly

Did Joshua murder? Not directly, just commanded others to do it.

Link to comment

Are you talking about Nephi killing Laban?

After Laban does this:

and this:

So, Laban bears false witness that Laman was a robber, and then Laban steals all the things they offer for the brass plates. Is Nephi a murderer for killing Laban? Not according to the Law of Moses:

The Lord commanded Nephi to honour the Law of Moses.

Laban and Nephi stood before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, and Laban lied about Nephi being a robber during this trial, and that's why it was kosher [no pun intended] for Nephi to kill Laban?

Yes, I remember that fondly. That was one of my favorites parts of The Book of Mormon.

Link to comment

Laban and Nephi stood before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, and Laban lied about Nephi being a robber during this trial, and that's why it was kosher [no pun intended] for Nephi to kill Laban?

Yes, I remember that fondly. That was one of my favorites parts of The Book of Mormon.

We always stand before the Lord, we cannot hide our sins from Him. As Laban was not going to be put before any priests or judges for his actions, and even if he was it would be his word again Nephi and his brothers, and the latter wouldn't be believed, the Lord uses Nephi to dispense the judgement required by the Law.

That is why is was 'kosher' for Nephi to kill Laban, unless you think that the Lord's stance on the Law can be overruled by priests and judges.

Link to comment

Then what about Nephi?

Even the law of man recognizes that not all taking of human life is equal: it recognizes gradations from justifiable homicide involuntary manslaughter to voluntary manslaughter to felony murder to aggravated murder. Since even man can do that, there's no reason to suspect that God cannot. As Joseph Smith said, "That which is wrong in one circumstance can be, and often is, right in another." Since you appear so willing to hold Nephi to such a stringent standard, perhaps you can enlighten us on what penalties Laban would have faced in 5th-century B.C. Jerusalem for the crimes he committed?

Link to comment

We always stand before the Lord, we cannot hide our sins from Him. As Laban was not going to be put before any priests or judges for his actions, and even if he was it would be his word again Nephi and his brothers, and the latter wouldn't be believed, the Lord uses Nephi to dispense the judgement required by the Law.

That is why is was 'kosher' for Nephi to kill Laban, unless you think that the Lord's stance on the Law can be overruled by priests and judges.

Or perhaps your Law of Moses explanation makes no sense, since the law you cited provides a specific procedure for when you can kill someone for perjury.

Link to comment

Even the law of man recognizes that not all taking of human life is equal: it recognizes gradations from justifiable homicide involuntary manslaughter to voluntary manslaughter to felony murder to aggravated murder. Since even man can do that, there's no reason to suspect that God cannot.

But the Doctrine and Covenants does not say any of this. It just says not to kill. That's it.

As Joseph Smith said, "That which is wrong in one circumstance can be, and often is, right in another."

And that is certainly one of his better pick-up lines, although Nancy Rigdon didn't seem to go for it.

Since you appear so willing to hold Nephi to such a stringent standard, perhaps you can enlighten us on what penalties Laban would have faced in 5th-century B.C. Jerusalem for the crimes he committed?

Laban committed crimes that he could have been penalized for if he had actually been put through the legal process in place at the time and convicted on evidence that was could be used in that process.

So he needed killin.'

Let's hear it for the vigilantes!

Batman.............

Charles Bronson in Death Wish...................

Bernard Goetz back in the 80's in the New York subway.............

and Nephi.

Link to comment

Or perhaps your Law of Moses explanation makes no sense, since the law you cited provides a specific procedure for when you can kill someone for perjury.

This just shows why you think it makes no sense, you clearly don't understand it. It doesn't say you kill someone for perjury, it says you punish the person who bears false witness with the same punishment as the crime they falsely accuse another of. And do you think that just because no priest or judge would dispense the Law as it should be in Laban's case then the Lord isn't in a position to act in the matter?

Link to comment

But the Doctrine and Covenants does not say any of this. It just says not to kill. That's it.

It's a reiteration of the commandment given in Exodus. In other words, the Lord is reaffirming that the Ten Commandments still apply. Your attempts at holding to a strict interpretation of all LDS scripture will do nothing more than reveal just how disingenuous you are being. Frankly, as a member of the Church, I happen to believe in a little more pragmatic God than you seem willing to allow us to have.

And that is certainly one of his better pick-up lines, although Nancy Rigdon didn't seem to go for it.

Laban committed crimes that he could have been penalized for if he had actually been put through the legal process in place at the time and convicted on evidence that was could be used in that process.

So he needed killin.'

Let's hear it for the vigilantes!

Batman.............

Charles Bronson in Death Wish...................

Bernard Goetz back in the 80's in the New York subway.............

and Nephi.

Is this supposed to advance your argument or just show how petulant you can be?

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...