Looking beyond the mark...with the Word of Wisdom

[volgadon]

or a devout Mormons home.

Nonsense. I know plenty of devout LDS homes which have caffeinated drinks in them, mine, for instance.

[rodheadlee]

Gee rod that bad? No wonder why you prefer Samoa.

I love the South Pacific. I can't wait to go home. It's prudent to be aware of where you are in LA.

[YJacket]

If this is true, than I would not base my view of alochol consumption and it evils on these friends, as they are certainly the exception and not the norm (statistically speaking).

And yes, the odds of personal and family conflict, strife and grief are certainly increased with the use of alcohol, but again, that is the exception and not the rule.

If that's your view then you really need to get out and about a little more. I personally have witnessed more personal and family destruction at the hand of alcohol than I care to relate. I think several issues arise that are being confused.

Alcohol, drug consumption, and other vices almost always accompany the lower class. Whether they drink b/c they are poor or are poor b/c the drink is immaterial. Chances of such things occurring in a higher class are lower, probably because the higher class have either more education or more self-control otherwise they wouldn't be in that position. Regardless, I've yet to see an example were alcohol consumption has a positive effect. You point out they aren't evils, I say that while in certain circumstance they may not be an evil (a slight buzz, 1 glass of wine a day), I don't see anyone saying they are positive. The benefit in a glass of wine is from the grapes themselves, not the alcohol. I'd rather eat 1 cup of grapes a day (hmm, very yummy) than a glass of wine.

Just because you personally think world-wide it is the exception b/c you don't see it doesn't make it so. An exception to me is <5% anything above that IMO is not an exception, that's at least 1 out of 20 individuals. 1 out of a 100, etc. is getting closer to an exception.

You're argument strikes me as a rationalization. Just because you feel it is safe to drive 75mph on a back road and you've driven without harm because you are a very attentive driver doesn't mean it is safe.

The whole gospel of Jesus Christ is based upon a similar vein. Do not get angry with your brother, do not lust after women, etc. Is there any "real" harm if you are angry at your brother, or if you think "man I wish I could meet her", etc. I'm a good guy, I can control it . . . until you can't. If we were all angels, what would be the harm, we probably wouldn't even need to go to church. We could institute sacrament in our own homes, read scriptures, sing songs, etc.

But we aren't so God has given us guidelines, commandments, etc, to help us and while some of it has to do with a setting apart, some of it is for actual health reasons. Abstaining from Alcohol is one of them. I'm so thankful that I was taught to not drink coffee. Due to various reasons I get about 6 hours of sleep a night and wake up at 4:45am. I'm wide awake and ready to go at work. I can't even talk to my co-worker at 8:00am b/c they can't wake up until they've had their morning Joe. I'm so glad I don't drink or smoke. The only one that I quasi wonder about is tea, but I figure if I already know 3/4 aren't in general good for me, I'm sure in 50 years something will be discovered about tea.

The really interesting thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ is that the closer you come to Him the more things you do or don't do b/c you realize it's just not what He wants.

Just because you can do something and it won't hurt you in that instance doesn't mean you should.

[rockslider]

Nonsense. I know plenty of devout LDS homes which have caffeinated drinks in them, mine, for instance.

woops, looks like you rate a lower score there! Yours is obviously a less devote home.

[mfbukowski]

Alcohol, drug consumption, and other vices almost always accompany the lower class.

I know

You never hear about any Hollywood celebrities or anybody with money who has a drinking problem. Just doesn't happen. Especially rich musicians with the big houses and stuff? Man, those guys are pillars of virtue!

[rodheadlee]

I know

You never hear about any Hollywood celebrities or anybody with money who has a drinking problem. Just doesn't happen. Especially rich musicians with the big houses and stuff? Man, those guys are pillars of virtue!

You would be surprised at what goes on deep inside the corporate offices of some major corporations, I got paid 4 times the going rate to keep my mouth shut. On my way out the hot and cold running secretaries were on their way in. I'm sure they weren't in there committing adultery, they were just taking short hand.

This will be the last I post on this subject, it's dredging up some really bad memories. I'm over it.

[YJacket]

I know

You never hear about any Hollywood celebrities or anybody with money who has a drinking problem. Just doesn't happen. Especially rich musicians with the big houses and stuff? Man, those guys are pillars of virtue!

Oh brother. This is why I generally never bother to have an intelligent discussion on a message board . . . I've got to respond to this hyperbolic junk.

Generally speaking, the more responsible a person is the better their station in life (NO, this is not all inclusive!). The more responsible the less apt to do something stupid. The middle class worker will be less apt to drink into oblivion b/c a) if he does co-workers will find out, performance at work will be reduced and he could eventually be fired and b) he's probably gotten to a middle class life by being responsible and by not wasting his life away like a drunken frat boy. If one doesn't accept this that the more responsible a person is the better their station in life or that one can improve their situation then what is the point? What hope do you have for a better life?

Therefore, if you live in a middle class neighborhood it would be common to have plenty of people "drink responsibly", and I'd guarantee the percentage "drinking responsibly" in a middle class neighborhood would be higher than in a low income area.

I think these type of Hollywood celebrities feel they can do whatever and get away with it same as a drunken frat boy mentality.

My original point is that yes some can "drink responsibly" without it affecting their life. The WoW was given so that even those who can't, have a guideline and a way to improve their lives. For those who can "drink responsibly" why does it matter that you can do it? If it's not that big of a part of your life, can't you just trust God and obey it and set an example for others?

[handys003]

Oh brother. This is why I generally never bother to have an intelligent discussion on a message board . . . I've got to respond to this hyperbolic junk.

Generally speaking, the more responsible a person is the better their station in life (NO, this is not all inclusive!). The more responsible the less apt to do something stupid. The middle class worker will be less apt to drink into oblivion b/c a) if he does co-workers will find out, performance at work will be reduced and he could eventually be fired and b) he's probably gotten to a middle class life by being responsible and by not wasting his life away like a drunken frat boy. If one doesn't accept this that the more responsible a person is the better their station in life or that one can improve their situation then what is the point? What hope do you have for a better life?

Therefore, if you live in a middle class neighborhood it would be common to have plenty of people "drink responsibly", and I'd guarantee the percentage "drinking responsibly" in a middle class neighborhood would be higher than in a low income area.

I think these type of Hollywood celebrities feel they can do whatever and get away with it same as a drunken frat boy mentality.

My original point is that yes some can "drink responsibly" without it affecting their life. The WoW was given so that even those who can't, have a guideline and a way to improve their lives. For those who can "drink responsibly" why does it matter that you can do it? If it's not that big of a part of your life, can't you just trust God and obey it and set an example for others?

What do you define as drinking responsibly? That is a relative term subject to interpretation. One glass of wine a week? Or a little snort everyday? Two beers with the buds every day after work? What? What is responsible having a joint once a week?

Also generalizations are absurd. I have seen, and dealt with many alcoholics and drug users who would be considered outstanding and responsible citizens. It doesn't matter the class. You would be surprised what goes on behind closed doors when not around others.

I also do agree with "as why does it matter if you can do it". The point is that's your personal assumption, and not the whole organization of the Church. That is what GA's revelate. It is asked to do so to be considered worthy. Live by it or don't via free will, but don't bellyache when you can't get a recommend or lose PH. That's the groundwork laid by HF.

[handys003]

woops, looks like you rate a lower score there! Yours is obviously a less devote home.

volgadon, on 02 April 2010 - 11:06 PM, said:Nonsense. I know plenty of devout LDS homes which have caffeinated drinks in them, mine, for instance.

Nonsense! The GA's did not revelate caffeine. That is personal assumption. Volg's home is just as devout.

[volgadon]

I wasn

[Ariarates]

I can't believe this delicious inconsistency has been ignored. As critics love to point out, the WoW wasn't observed all that much.

You are probably correct, although I do not know the coffee and alcohol consumption patterns of the pioneers. Which goes to show that the italicized commentary in the elaboration of my first post in this thread was unwise:

"Most of these diseases can be significantly reduced by good hygiene, clean (or at least boiled) water, draining swamps (think Nauvoo), a good diet (lots of fruit and veggies) and isolating infected persons. The WoW says nothing on these subjects, even though the Saints were succumbing to these illnesses by the thousands. In fact, mortality in Nauvoo was twice as high as in the rest of the US. Had the pioneers drunk coffee instead of unboiled water, a lot of suffering could have been prevented."

[volgadon]

Most probably drank small beers, which is in the WoW.

[handys003]

Most probably drank small beers, which is in the WoW.

So in a sense since we are to partake in whole grains such as barely. We should delight in taking beer? Hmm...interesting insight.

[YJacket]

What do you define as drinking responsibly? That is a relative term subject to interpretation. One glass of wine a week? Or a little snort everyday? Two beers with the buds every day after work? What? What is responsible having a joint once a week?

Also generalizations are absurd. I have seen, and dealt with many alcoholics and drug users who would be considered outstanding and responsible citizens. It doesn't matter the class. You would be surprised what goes on behind closed doors when not around others.

I also do agree with "as why does it matter if you can do it". The point is that's your personal assumption, and not the whole organization of the Church. That is what GA's revelate. It is asked to do so to be considered worthy. Live by it or don't via free will, but don't bellyache when you can't get a recommend or lose PH. That's the groundwork laid by HF.

I think we must be mis-communicating. I don't agree with drinking, I don't drink, I've never drunk alcohol in my life. I believe a person's life will be better not drinking. It's a commandment for a good reason, for the benefit of man. I don't complain about the WoW, I love it.

I tried to find some stats on alcohol drinking by class and didn't find anything substantial one way or another. At this point, it's not worth my time trying to argue about it. I could be wrong. I personally believe that you will find more substance abuse at lower incomes vs. higher incomes. Yes you will find it everywhere, but I personally believe you will find a greater percentage at the lower incomes. I tried to find some stats, but couldn't find any. This is based on my personal experience of growing up in a lower income area, living in lower income areas and then working and living in a higher income area. Again not worth my time to try and justify it as I could be wrong.

To deny that someone can drink alcohol and not be in mortal danger is a little much. Many of the prophets drank. But just b/c Joseph Smith or Noah or whoever did it doesn't mean we have the liability to do so. You can drive safely at 80mph, just like you can drink without being in mortal danger. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[volgadon]

So in a sense since we are to partake in whole grains such as barely. We should delight in taking beer? Hmm...interesting insight.

Do you know what small beers are?

[Glenn101]

To deny that someone can drink alcohol and not be in mortal danger is a little much. Many of the prophets drank. But just b/c Joseph Smith or Noah or whoever did it doesn't mean we have the liability to do so. You can drive safely at 80mph, just like you can drink without being in mortal danger. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

The point of the Word of Wisdom is just that. Some people are able to drink in moderation and not become alcoholics. As you pointed out, some of the prophets drank, and to excess, before the Word of Wisdom. It was and is a wise rule and wisely it has been applied to everyone it was "Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints." (D&C 89:3) So many people carp abot the can nots and do nots and so totally ignore the wonderful promises and blessings inherited if one keeps the Word of Wisdom.

Glenn

[MatthewG]

I drink Coke products and cold green teas occasionally. I have no issues with medical marijuana and would use it if a doctor claimed it would help an ailing problem especially if I had cancer.

[handys003]

Do you know what small beers are?

I was being facetious. I thought you would know my writing style by now. Also yes as in near-beer such as the lovely taste of O'Douls a refreshing non-alcoholic beer.

Not. It tastes horrible

[volgadon]

Matthew, green tea is a problem, cokes are not.

[handys003]

I think we must be mis-communicating. I don't agree with drinking, I don't drink, I've never drunk alcohol in my life. I believe a person's life will be better not drinking. It's a commandment for a good reason, for the benefit of man. I don't complain about the WoW, I love it.

I tried to find some stats on alcohol drinking by class and didn't find anything substantial one way or another. At this point, it's not worth my time trying to argue about it. I could be wrong. I personally believe that you will find more substance abuse at lower incomes vs. higher incomes. Yes you will find it everywhere, but I personally believe you will find a greater percentage at the lower incomes. I tried to find some stats, but couldn't find any. This is based on my personal experience of growing up in a lower income area, living in lower income areas and then working and living in a higher income area. Again not worth my time to try and justify it as I could be wrong.

To deny that someone can drink alcohol and not be in mortal danger is a little much. Many of the prophets drank. But just b/c Joseph Smith or Noah or whoever did it doesn't mean we have the liability to do so. You can drive safely at 80mph, just like you can drink without being in mortal danger. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Yes I think we were missing here. Also you don't need stats. My experience working at a large Museum in the past and making rounds at exhibition fundraisers, picking up art at homes, recording insurance values at property, escorting art to other fundraisers and exhibitions etc... while watching many wealthy donors gives some valuable insight. Whereas the upper echelons of society may seem well behaved that is not necessarily true. The ratio per types of class in my estimation would pan out to be equal in some for of drug or alcohol abuse.

[MatthewG]

Matthew, green tea is a problem, cokes are not.

In your opinion maybe. In mine not.

[volgadon]

In your opinion maybe. In mine not.

Not my opinion, green tea is the exact same plant as black tea.

[frankenstein]

In your opinion maybe. In mine not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_tea

Green tea is tea made solely with the leaves of Camellia sinensis that have undergone minimal oxidation during processing.

Black tea is a variety of tea that is more oxidized than the oolong, green, and white varieties. All four varieties are made from leaves of Camellia sinensis.

[MatthewG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_tea

Green tea is tea made solely with the leaves of Camellia sinensis that have undergone minimal oxidation during processing.

Black tea is a variety of tea that is more oxidized than the oolong, green, and white varieties. All four varieties are made from leaves of Camellia sinensis.

And?

[volgadon]

And?

Is forbidden by the WoW.