Looking beyond the mark...with the Word of Wisdom

[Ariarates]

CFR those statistics that the Saints were higher than anyone else.

Garrett, D.H. (1988). Disease and Sickness in Nauvoo. (copied from the 1997 LDS Collector

[Ariarates]

Oh, I don't know. If you actually followed the WoW as it's recorded in the D&C, I think you'd have a pretty decent foundation for healthy living.

Probably. But I doubt that you'd be healthier than the average non-smoker. That was my point: apart from the smoking, there is nothing in the WoW that would keep LDS healthier than other non-smokers.

I have no religiously inspired opposition to alcohol, but let's be honest--you're better off not drinking it. When you wake up with a splitting head-ache, a stomach ache, and quivery legs after a night of drinking, that's a sign that alcohol is not doing your body any favors.

I agree that getting drunk is not a good idea but that is not how most non-LDS use alcohol.

The WoW recommends grain as the primary source of calories, and suggests that you eat meat "sparingly." Again, good advice on both counts. Coffee and tea are benign, but abstaining from either wouldn't kill you.

Hmm, I haven't read anything about calories in the WoW, nor about coffee or tea.

Add fruits and vegetables, a little exercise, and lay off the processed junk food, and you're left with a dietary plan any nutritionist would recommend.

That's my point: you need to add stuff for the WoW to be of any use health-wise.

Considering some of more far-out diets that sprang up in the 19th century (I'm looking at you, Kellogg), JS's plan ain't half bad.

Don't know about the other diets but the WoW is a pretty accurate reflection of 19th century thinking about health. See Bush, L.E. (1981). The Word of Wisdom in Early Nineteenth-Century Perspective. Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14 (3), pp. 47-65.

[hordak]

This came up a lot on my mission, because tea is a major part of people's culture. Green tea is the same plant as black tea. The only difference is in the oxidation. If it is not Camellia sinensis it is not tea, but an infusion.

I understand the logic, same plant same thing, but our EQPs wife makes a delicious poppy seed chicken

[handys003]

Garrett, D.H. (1988). Disease and Sickness in Nauvoo. (copied from the 1997 LDS Collector

[Kenngo1969]

... Also the Japanese drink barely tea. ...

Barely? Ya mean, they strip nekkid when they drink their tea? (Oooh, that'd be fun! Mebbe ah should fahnd muhself a Japaneze gurl! )

Or do you mean, perhaps, that what they drink can barely be called tea?

Or maybe you mean that they drink barley tea. Yeah, that's it! By Jove, I think I've got it!

[rodheadlee]

I must live in a different Los Angeles than Pratt Cat. I don't believe I know anybody among the group of friends I had from my youth, before joining the Church, that has not committed adultery while under the influence of alcohol. All of them are now divorced, it has ripped their families apart and emptied their bank accounts.

[Ariarates]

If you knew back then that these trading companies were enslaving children, men, and women to grow opium, coffee and tea. Not paying them a dime with routine abuses, such as rape, and death by mercenaries. Would you support them by partaking in coffee and tea? Knowing this would you have supported such use of military action to bring about such beverages?

That is a difficult dilemma. The same holds true for chocolate these days, produced in Ghana and Ivory Coast by abducted children from Burkina Fasso. I guess a case can also be made that the military is being used to secure our oil supply.

As interesting as your proposition about the role of the WoW in such issues may be, it would be difficult to make the case convincingly. Moreover, neither tea, coffee nor opium are mentioned in the WoW. It warns against hot drinks and alcohol, just like the cold water and temperance societies of Joseph Smith's day.

[Deborah]

Oh, I don't know. If you actually followed the WoW as it's recorded in the D&C, I think you'd have a pretty decent foundation for healthy living.

Don't fall over but I actually agree with MC. I think too often we overlook the benefits of the WOW in its entirety. Too many LDS are very conscientious about the 4 No's but neglect the more healthful aspects along with that.

I also think the WOW with the coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol abstention is our Law of Moses which sets us apart in the world. Many non-LDS abstain from tobacco and alcohol but not necessarily coffee and tea.

But more than anything the WOW is about thoughtful eating and treating our bodies well and using moderation in all things so that we will have health and vitality and function better spiritually.

[Walden]

I must live in a different Los Angeles than Pratt Cat. I don't believe I know anybody among the group of friends I had from my youth, before joining the Church, that has not committed adultery while under the influence of alcohol. All of them are now divorced, it has ripped their families apart and emptied their bank accounts.

Are you seriously saying that everyone you know that drinks alcohol has committed adultery? I find that impossible to believe. And everyone you know that has partaken of alcohol has had their families ripped apart and emptied their bank accounts? Either you know only one or two people who drink and have derived your view of alcohol from those few people, or you hang with a very disturbed crowd.

I'm not sure about the group of friends that you hang out with, but I have many friends who are married, enjoy a glass of wine or beer at dinner (and on occassion get a little tipsy), and have never compromised their relationship with their partner.

Did you look at the statistics that I quoted in my last post? Does any of it make sense?

Are you people really convinced that all people who drink alcohol are condemned to a life of misery, self-destruction and sorrow? This is the kind of paranoid mormon groupthink that makes outsiders consider mormons "wacky." I am not trying to be disrespectful, but this is just crazy talk, to state that it is the norm for those that drink alcohol to end up with a life that is completely destroyed by alcohol....it happens, but it is the exception, not the norm. Look at the statistics, look at the facts....geez.

[frankenstein]

Are you people really convinced that all people who drink alcohol are condemned to a life of misery, self-destruction and sorrow? This is the kind of paranoid mormon groupthink that makes outsiders consider mormons "wacky." I am not trying to be disrespectful, but this is just crazy talk, to state that it is the norm for those that drink alcohol to end up with a life that is completely destroyed by alcohol....it happens, but it is the exception, not the norm. Look at the statistics, look at the facts....geez

My Niece told me "Did you know if you smoke 3 cigarettes, you can never quit smoking, because after 3 your are addicted" It was not my place to correct her and I could tell if someone at Church told her that OR if she was told that in School near West Point.

So I agree that there is much "fear mongering" with the WoW wisdom, and substances of the Word of Wisdom.

Can and do many people use the substances in moderation, Yes, aside from smoking, the other substances have in moderation and wisdom are not that bad.

[Jigglysaint]

My Niece told me "Did you know if you smoke 3 cigarettes, you can never quit smoking, because after 3 your are addicted" It was not my place to correct her and I could tell if someone at Church told her that OR if she was told that in School near West Point.

So I agree that there is much "fear mongering" with the WoW wisdom, and substances of the Word of Wisdom.

Can and do many people use the substances in moderation, Yes, aside from smoking, the other substances have in moderation and wisdom are not that bad.

The WOW is also there to allow people to set examples for others. Imagine this situation where the only commandment is that we don't do things in excess. We have two friends, one who is fully capable of enjoying a glass of wine without feeling the need to consume in excess. His friend is a recovering alcoholic. Should it be fair, in the very least, that the first man be able to drink what he desires in front of his friend because he is capable of drinking in moderation? Such a thing can put a wedge between a frienship since anything, except for the most mature of people, can inflict feelings of jealousy between people. I know that I'd be kind of mad if here I am trying my hardest to keep sober while my buddy can nurse a beer and say no after only one drink.

The WOW levels the playing field. To the weak it's salvation from their vices. To the strong, it is the oppertunity to set an example and make an even greater sacrifice. I believe that the greater stumbling block to the WOW isn't for those who are addicted and need help, but to those moderates who are fully capabable of taking a sip of wine and calling it a day. Indeed when the strong and asked to be humble, there is always a greater backlash than when the weak are asked to be strong. Take my green tea example for instance. I am not addicted to tea, nor do I drink hot tea and coffee. I stay away from iced coffee and iced tea, but lately I've taken to occasionally drinking iced green tea, or using products with green tea extract. I am strong and I do not need to worry about being addicted because I can stop at any time. Does anybody see any danger in my thinking? I bet I could also drink a cup of coffee or have a beer and be totally fine and not go crazy. If I have the wisdom to be moderate, why can't I enjoy it? The answer is that I don't abstain purely for my physical benefit, but I do so as an example to others. It's like a self imposed handicap, a sacrifice, in order to eliminate that potential friction between the weak and the strong. After all, how can our hearts be one when we are constantly engaging in being judgemental towards one another?

Now, as for the idea of perhaps abstaining in front of weak individuals and consuming in privacy, well it's still a convenant between you and the Lord, and even if nobody sees you doing it, you still see yourself do it and it's recorded in Heaven. Furthermore that's what hypocracy is all about.

One more thing: Enough of this Tannic Acid junk. If soomebody asks you why you can drink Coke, but not coffee or tea, just say that you made a promise to God not to drink coffee or tea, and that you wish to honour that promise. As far as I understand, the covenant didn't have any fine print, so it's a loophole. Of course the real test is to see if we are honest in whether or not we wish to exploit that loophole or not.

[rodheadlee]

2010 - 08:11 AM' timestamp='1270221098' post='1208829111']

Are you seriously saying that everyone you know that drinks alcohol has committed adultery? I find that impossible to believe.

Are you people really convinced that all people who drink alcohol are condemned to a life of misery, self-destruction and sorrow?

Yes to question 1, out of my group of friends from high school and early employment years this would be true. All were under the influence of alcohol when they committed adultery. The adultery is what ripped their homes apart.

No, to question 2 but the odds are certainly increased.

[Whiskeypete]

My favorite example of "looking beyond the mark" is an article in the Ensign in 1990 on caffeine. In a table labeled Common Sources of Caffeine it states:

Cocoa beverage (water mix, 6 ozs.) 18

Milk chocolate candy bar (8 ozs.) 48

While those statistics may be true, I think it is more than a little disingenous to refer to an 8 oz. bar of chocolate as a "Common Source of Caffeine" as 8 oz is a half-pound of chocolate! A Hersheys bar is what, 1 oz?

I think the WoW comes down to convenants. I loved this comment from JigglySaint: If soomebody asks you why you can drink Coke, but not coffee or tea, just say that you made a promise to God not to drink coffee or tea, and that you wish to honour that promise

[frankenstein]

One more thing: Enough of this Tannic Acid junk.

Amen to that! People need to stop creating reasons for this or that, when the reasons why are section 89 and tanic acid is not one of the reason.

If soomebody asks you why you can drink Coke, but not coffee or tea,

I answer because as far as the LDS know, we are told to not drink coffee and tea, nothing has been said about caffeinated soda. And the WoW is not about caffeine, because I am instructed not to drink Decaff Coffee.

As far as I understand, the covenant didn't have any fine print, so it's a loophole. Of course the real test is to see if we are honest in whether or not we wish to exploit that loophole or not.

caffeine soda is not a loophole, caffeine has not been added to this "list" as part of the word of wisdom -

[hordak]

My favorite example of "looking beyond the mark" is an article in the Ensign in 1990 on caffeine. In a table labeled Common Sources of Caffeine it states:

A Hersheys bar is what, 1 oz?

[rockslider]

You will not find any caffeinated drinks served in the Temple cafeterias, or a devout Mormons home.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, but they put two scoops of raisins in a package of raisin bran. TWO!

[rockslider]

Be honest. the WoW is commonly used, by the lay TBM, as an indicator of one's righteousness.

One might drink Coke and still get a TR, but of course the one who does not drink Coke is more righteous than the one that does. Common knowledge, LDS 101.

[frankenstein]

Be honest. the WoW is commonly used, by the lay TBM, as an indicator of one's righteousness.

One might drink Coke and still get a TR, but of course the one who does not drink Coke is more righteous than the one that does. Common knowledge, LDS 101.

LOL unfortunately some do think that way.

[Ariarates]

The WOW levels the playing field. To the weak it's salvation from their vices. To the strong, it is the oppertunity to set an example and make an even greater sacrifice.

If you put it like that, the WoW is nothing but ethical socialism.

[Walden]

Yes to question 1, out of my group of friends from high school and early employment years this would be true. All were under the influence of alcohol when they committed adultery. The adultery is what ripped their homes apart.

No, to question 2 but the odds are certainly increased.

If this is true, than I would not base my view of alochol consumption and it evils on these friends, as they are certainly the exception and not the norm (statistically speaking).

And yes, the odds of personal and family conflict, strife and grief are certainly increased with the use of alcohol, but again, that is the exception and not the rule.

[handys003]

Barely? Ya mean, they strip nekkid when they drink their tea? (Oooh, that'd be fun! Mebbe ah should fahnd muhself a Japaneze gurl! )

Or do you mean, perhaps, that what they drink can barely be called tea?

Or maybe you mean that they drink barley tea. Yeah, that's it! By Jove, I think I've got it!

LOL! My bad and thanks for the recorrection.

[handys003]

If this is true, than I would not base my view of alochol consumption and it evils on these friends, as they are certainly the exception and not the norm (statistically speaking).

And yes, the odds of personal and family conflict, strife and grief are certainly increased with the use of alcohol, but again, that is the exception and not the rule.

rodheadlee, on 02 April 2010 - 08:41 AM, said:Yes to question 1, out of my group of friends from high school and early employment years this would be true. All were under the influence of alcohol when they committed adultery. The adultery is what ripped their homes apart.

No, to question 2 but the odds are certainly increased.

PC - It may well be that the people Rod knows personally who drank, and then cheated on their spouses. Not entire groups in California.

[rodheadlee]

If this is true, than I would not base my view of alochol consumption and it evils on these friends, as they are certainly the exception and not the norm (statistically speaking).

And yes, the odds of personal and family conflict, strife and grief are certainly increased with the use of alcohol, but again, that is the exception and not the rule.

I grew up near Huntington Beach during the late 60's early 70's, the peace, love, dope, generation, which turned into the party dude generation. Mormon was not even a word in our vocabulary. It was not the exception to the rule. You could go to any drive in theater for 2 bucks a car load , smuggle all the booze in that you desired and find steamed up windows up and down the rows, which turned into the infamous office parties later on. You know, a christmas party for the employees, a little wine, a little cocaine in the back room, a little hanky panky going on. Come on, they make movies about this stuff. What LA do you live in? West Hills?

I'll rephrase it for you, most adulterers are drinkers and were drinking while committing adultery, this does not mean most drinkers are adulterers. But it does increase the odds just as hanging out in dark alleys increases the odds of being mugged. I stay away from dark alleys and booze, it's a Word of Wisdom. Just like: never pull up tight to the car in front of you at a stop light in East LA, leave room to escape.

[handys003]

I grew up near Huntington Beach during the late 60's early 70's, the peace, love, dope, generation, which turned into the party dude generation. Mormon was not even a word in our vocabulary. It was not the exception to the rule. You could go to any drive in theater for 2 bucks a car load , smuggle all the booze in that you desired and find steamed up windows up and down the rows, which turned into the infamous office parties later on. You know, a christmas party for the employees, a little wine, a little cocaine in the back room, a little hanky panky going on. Come on, they make movies about this stuff. What LA do you live in? West Hills?

I'll rephrase it for you, most adulterers are drinkers and were drinking while committing adultery, this does not mean most drinkers are adulterers. But it does increase the odds just as hanging out in dark alleys increases the odds of being mugged. I stay away from dark alleys and booze, it's a Word of Wisdom. Just like: never pull up tight to the car in front of you at a stop light in East LA, leave room to escape.

Gee rod that bad? No wonder why you prefer Samoa.