God's Foreknowledge

[Jeff K.]

Quote

And it seems there is one constant involved that makes it absolutely clear that absolute knowledge must exist. It lies within the definition of truth (already mentioned), and how God is the God of truth.

Jeff, that just doesn't advance your position. The very issue under consideration is exactly what is in the set of true things. Embedded in the concept of knowing is that one can only know true things

[cksalmon]

I think the libertarian, in the sense that the libertarian thinks he knows more than God (in regard to his own will), is foolish in believing so.

Hi Jeff--

Let's not confuse our terms, here. "Libertarianism," in this discussion, is the belief that, for any actual choice made by a libertarianly-free agent, he could have chosen otherwise than he actually did. That is, libertarianism with regard to human agency is a rejection of determinism. It has nothing to do with claiming to know more than God about the human will (unless you, like me, believe God is a compatibilist!)

Best.

cks

[TOmNossor]

I don't need to "advance" the position, it is strengthened and stands upon the myriad of references. Rather you have presented nothing that advances the new supposition that God cannot know everything. Your position is that God simply cannot know because if he does, according to you the future cannot be known. But then you presume that 'time' is somehow unchanging (which it isn't) and to exist outside of it is impossible (and yet God can), on an eternal perspective (point of view) time is meaningless and therefore the defintion of truth, as presented in our doctrine is the knowledge, full contextual knowledge of things as they were, as they are and as they will be. The point is without equivocation. Your only rejoinder is "I don't think so", but you offer no proof beyond your own opinion and "unique" interpretation of scripture.

Hello Jeff,

If the future is OPEN, then it cannot be an actual fact.

If freedom includes the ability to do otherwise, then the future is OPEN.

I do not believe it is impossible that God knows precisely what I will do tomorrow. I merely believe that IF God knows precisely what I will do tomorrow, then I lack the ability to do differently than what God already knows I will do. Thus, my future may be of my choosing in some deterministic way, but my future is not OPEN.

I would be interested to know if you disagree with this. If you disagree, I would be interested in how you can believe that God knows absolutely what I will do and yet I could do other than what God knew I would do.

If you do not disagree, then do you believe our future is absolutely determined? (I think this is the position of CKSalmon).

CKSalmon also (I think) believes that salvation is predicated SOLELY upon God

[Jeff K.]

If you are outside of the constraints of time and see the past present and future as one, then it is a fact.

You confuse your freedom with someone elses knowledge.

[Jeff K.]

I am unsure how the concept of time actually rectifies this situation. If God sits outside of time as a privileged viewer of eternity, and my free action is genuinely OPEN, then God

[TOmNossor]

It has nothing to do with claiming to know more than God about the human will (unless you, like me, believe God is a compatibilist!)

That was funny!

Charity, TOm

[cksalmon]

If you are outside of the constraints of time and see the past present and future as one, then it is a fact.

You confuse your freedom with someone elses knowledge.

Hey Jeff--

I'm totally with you, here, insofar as you've gone. What strikes me as incongruous in your stated position vis-

[TOmNossor]

That places you on a linear path and the observation on a linear path, then of course he would not be outside of time.

[TOmNossor]

Hey Jeff--

I'm totally with you, here, insofar as you've gone. What strikes me as incongruous in your stated position vis-

[Ahab]

It is my opinion that many LDS who have thought extensively upon these issues reject that God exists outside of time.

That being said, it is a fairly common LDS belief.

Elder Maxwell gave a talk that suggested that God was outside of time.

Truman Madsen had a student at the time who had thought a great deal about this and he told Elder Maxwell that he wanted his student to come and talk with him about the difficulties of this position for a LDS.

Blake Ostler, the student, went to Elder Maxwell

[handys003]

From my standpoint handys, I think he set the parameters for them to follow, he did not tell them, he doesn't know. Where that so, he was in effect gambling with the risk that Adam and Eve would in effect destroy the plan of salvation. I do not think that is possible.

Sure it's possible. HF had other children If the PoS failed with them do you not think that others could have stepped in place of Adam and Eve on anohter planet. HF stated that he has created other worlds.

Moses 1:33

33 And ^aworlds without number have I ^bcreated; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the ^cSon I ^dcreated them, which is mine ^eOnly Begotten

[handys003]

Another thing I will point out is what is the point of the test on Abraham if HF already knows the outcome in advance. Just for entertainment? It would be like watching a rerun. There is no point of existence even for HF IMHO if there were no challenges for himself. He sets the parameters and has an understanding that we can fail as can the PoS. That is why he goes and lays down what it takes. Other wise if he new everything then his exaltation is pointless. We are to glorify HF through his works.

Moses 1:39

39 For behold, this is my ^awork and my ^bglory

[Glenn101]

I know this subject has been drummed to death, but I thought of it again during this past Sunday school class when a member was saying that God knew that Abraham would follow through with the sacrifice of Isaac, and so it was really about Abraham learning something, not God.

I had to interrupt when she said that God knows everything that will happen by saying, "I like to think that I surprise God every now and again."

(Greeted by a few nervous titters and quizzical expressions.)

Fortunately, the class did not get derailed on this subject, but I wondered if anybody here agrees with my comment that we can surprise God by what we do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I doubt that we surprise the Lord at all. Too many visions of the future with too much detail. And this from the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 130:

6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

Glenn

[Jeff K.]

It is my opinion that many LDS who have thought extensively upon these issues reject that God exists outside of time.

That being said, it is a fairly common LDS belief.

Elder Maxwell gave a talk that suggested that God was outside of time.

Truman Madsen had a student at the time who had thought a great deal about this and he told Elder Maxwell that he wanted his student to come and talk with him about the difficulties of this position for a LDS.

Blake Ostler, the student, went to Elder Maxwell

[Jeff K.]

Another thing I will point out is what is the point of the test on Abraham if HF already knows the outcome in advance. Just for entertainment? It would be like watching a rerun. There is no point of existence even for HF IMHO if there were no challenges for himself. He sets the parameters and has an understanding that we can fail as can the PoS. That is why he goes and lays down what it takes. Other wise if he new everything then his exaltation is pointless. We are to glorify HF through his works.

Moses 1:39

39 For behold, this is my ^awork and my ^bglory

[Jeff K.]

People who talk about whether or not God is in/out of time remind me of people who talk about whether or not there is a beginning/end of the universe.

Eternity consists of time, known to us as past, present and future, and there never was or will be a beginning/end of the universe because that would mean there was or will be a beginning/end to what most people refer to as "outer space".

... and while I'm here, I'll give you another little morsel of intelligence.

What most people refer to as "deep doctrine" is in reality the most basic doctrine.

Have fun, folks. I am enjoying watching you.

Well, just call me Ishmael, but in and outside of time is merely a catagorization of how we percieve the ability of God to see or perceive, not necessarily a physical place.

[handys003]

I think the point regarding Abraham is his own experience and by proxy it is our own experience, not God's. So God's knowledge is irrelevant in that out knowledge and growth is the only thing that counts. If I know a plant will grow, absolutely know, then I would still plant it in the dirt and watch it struggle. Even when I knew it would grow, it still has to go through the process.

Then you already know that that the plant will struggle but you do not know what will cause it to struggle. This only supports my supposition that HF knows that we his children will screw up but in what way. Therefore the unknown factor is still in play. There is no beginning and there is no end.

The assumption that HF knows everything is a false notion It is evident even in the Temple ceremony that HF does not know. I can't go into detail here. What point would be even giving life to one of his spirit children to exist to grow even if you knew it would fail? Let's say your HF. You decide handys003 were to come into this world only to fail, and become like the sons of perdition. Now why would you if you with clear knowledge beforehand allow me this future torture. Knowing clearly in advance that I would be condemned to an eternal damnation. All for your enjoyment? This is not exhibiting a true God of the Savior who teaches charity. This is the musing of a spiteful God who cares little for the soul of his children. Thus he fails in his exaltation for I have not glorified HF in anyway. No HF does not know everything in advance. even he does not know how his eternal progression will be as asserted in the KFD. It is all up to us to choose and the outcome will vary based on our choices. This is not scripted TV.

Being parents on here with children is the practice step to becoming like your HF. You made your children. You try to teach them how to be righteous. You hope that you teaching provides the best outcome based on your influence. However as a parent you don't know beforehand what choices the child will make. You just hope it's the right path, but it is up to them to fail or succeed. Your glory as a parent is dependent on how they endeavor.

[Jeff K.]

Then you already know that that the plant will struggle but you do not know what will cause it to struggle. This only supports my supposition that HF knows that we his children will screw up but in what way. Therefore the unknown factor is still in play. There is no beginning and there is no end.

The assumption that HF knows everything is a false notion It is evident even in the Temple ceremony that HF does not know. I can't go into detail here. What point would be even giving life to one of his spirit children to exist to grow even if you knew it would fail? Let's say your HF. You decide handys003 were to come into this world only to fail, and become like the sons of perdition. Now why would you if you with clear knowledge beforehand allow me this future torture. Knowing clearly in advance that I would be condemned to an eternal damnation. All for your enjoyment? This is not exhibiting a true God of the Savior who teaches charity. This is the musing of a spiteful God who cares little for the soul of his children. Thus he fails in his exaltation for I have not glorified HF in anyway. No HF does not know everything in advance. even he does not know how his etrnal progression will be as asserted in the KFD. It is all up to us to choose and the outcome will vary based on our choices. This is not scripted TV.

No, I would know what causes the plant to struggle too. All things are for our benefit and growth, in my view God's knowledge does not change our having to go through the struggles in order to mature ourselves. Experience is what it is about for us, not God's knowledge of what we will experience.

Knowing we won't make it, is a torture, not to us but to Heavenly Father, but like the Atonement, something that must be endured. Our glorification of God is small until we obtain exhaltation, but we all as we advance offer some glorification of God even when we fail to achieve the highest level of glory. Our choices are not defined by HIS knowledge of all things.

[handys003]

No, I would know what causes the plant to struggle too. All things are for our benefit and growth, in my view God's knowledge does not change our having to go through the struggles in order to mature ourselves. Experience is what it is about for us, not God's knowledge of what we will experience.

Knowing we won't make it, is a torture, not to us but to Heavenly Father, but like the Atonement, something that must be endured. Our glorification of God is small until we obtain exhaltation, but we all as we advance offer some glorification of God even when we fail to achieve the highest level of glory. Our choices are not defined by HIS knowledge of all things.

Therfore by your assertion HF knows that tommorow I am going to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and I am now subject to eternal damnation. Gee thanks HF for that wonderful experience. I'm glad you knew that. I hope you enjoyed the show HF. Guess PoS wan't for me then.

[Jeff K.]

Therfore by your assertion HF knows that tommorow I am going to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and I am now subject to eternal damnation. Gee thanks HF for that wonderful experience. I'm glad you knew that. I hope you enjoyed the show HF. Guess PoS wan't for me then.

Experience is not singular or linear. Your self destruction may very well enhance his glory by helping others see the error of their ways. Sidney Rigdon's defection helped strengthen the church in other ways.

[handys003]

Experience is not singular or linear. Your self destruction may very well enhance his glory by helping others see the error of their ways. Sidney Rigdon's defection helped strengthen the church in other ways.

Gee Jeff I never thought we'd disagree. Therefore my destruction and damnation for eternity is okay then. I volunteered in the pre- mortal existence to suffer for eternity and to oblivion for Hf gratification. I don't think so.

[Jeff K.]

Gee Jeff I never thought we'd disagree. Therefore my destruction and damnation for eternity is okay then. I volunteered in the pre- mortal existence to suffer for eternity and to oblivion for Hf gratification. I don't think so.

If we didn't disagree on anything our wives would look identical, which they might since I haven't seen yours, but allow me to comment on how beautiful she is if she looks like my wife. And how beautiful she must be in any case since our tastes are similar.

I suppose you and I might find some disagreement on this issue, and others do disagree with me on the issue, it is one of those things we won't find out until later, but one that has no effect on the faith either of us hold. Lets say I like baby blue curtains on the window and you like royal velvet, but we both like the same window.....

I would never say your death and destruction is ok, nor your oblivion, only that your death and destruction is a potential consequence of the risk we all agreed to in the premortal existence. Even as (from my opinion) Heavenly Father knew in anguish that some of us would not make it, and knew each one of us that would not...... And not for Heavenly Father's gratification, but for our experience to grow. HIS only gratification would come from our success, while HIS anguish, like the Atonement would be from our failure.

[Jeff K.]

Afraid I must retire, I have to teach English to the Spanish speaking ward tonight. An assignment.

Can anyone tell me the difference between assignment and calling? I seem to have a cornucopia of both.....

[handys003]

If we didn't disagree on anything our wives would look identical, which they might since I haven't seen yours, but allow me to comment on how beautiful she is if she looks like my wife. And how beautiful she must be in any case since our tastes are similar.

Go look at my profile and thanks for the comp. I'll email a better pic.

I suppose you and I might find some disagreement on this issue, and others do disagree with me on the issue, it is one of those things we won't find out until later, but one that has no effect on the faith either of us hold. Lets say I like baby blue curtains on the window and you like royal velvet, but we both like the same window.....

Agreed

I would never say your death and destruction is ok, nor your oblivion, only that your death and destruction is a potential consequence of the risk we all agreed to in the premortal existence. Even as (from my opinion) Heavenly Father knew in anguish that some of us would not make it, and knew each one of us that would not...... And not for Heavenly Father's gratification, for our experience to grow. HIS only gratification would come from our success, while HIS anguish, like the Atonement would be from our failure.

I know that. I wa implying in hypothetical speak. I also agree that he knew some of us would not make it, but based on our choices, and not through pre-knowledge that I the person would not make it. That is where we seperate. If we knew this in the pre-mortal life that we would suffer eternal damnation, then the PoS is a mute point. It's about saving our souls for his exaltation. If our souls are not to be saved their is no need for the PoS. I nor would many of his pre-mortal children would not agree to this plan of being born only to be condemned to failure in outer darknes for eternity. This is counter to the teachings of Christ. The PoS is for all of us, and not a certain number of select spirits.

[mbh26]

I find it interesting that quantum mechanics, the longest standing scientific explanation for the behavior of matter yet to be disproven or replaced by a better explanation, supports the notion of an indeterminate universe as well. God knows everything that can be known. God can do everything that can be done. It would not surprise me at all to hear the prophets who wrote the Old Testament to tell me in the next life that they never conceived of anyone thinking otherwise, thus they saw no need to be more specific than they were. I am sure some of the prophets were capable of understanding the reality of an indeterminate universe. You don't even need quantuum mechanics to discover that. It's a logical imperative that even a primitive man could figure out through his own human experience.