Is The Church Perfect?

[thesometimesaint]

fred57:

I can not speak for anyone else, but I know I sin and fall far short of the glory of God.

[fred57]

One way of looking at it is by asking yourself "Since the Church is made for imperfect people, does a perfect Church require that it be inerrant?" My answer would be no; therefore, the Church is perfect.

Hopefully that kind of logic isn't used elsewhere in life. Imagine the accountant telling the client, your tax return is perfect, except for the error I made in failing to include your W-2s, or, the construction engineer who claims the bridge he just built is perfect, except for the error he made in not building it completely across the Mississippi.

[Senator]

Then LDS mortals must be far from God as well. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Indeed,

I have already invited you to start your own thread so that you can more fully hone the aim of your little spitwad, but you seem reluctant to do it.

[fred57]

fred57:

I can not speak for anyone else, but I know I sin and fall far short of the glory of God.

Does that excuse you from "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

[thesometimesaint]

fred57:

Nope, it just means that I am even more dependent on the Atonement of Jesus the Christ.

[fred57]

Indeed,

I have already invited you to start your own thread so that you can more fully hone the aim of your little spitwad, but you seem reluctant to do it.

Why start another thread to talk about the same thing we're talking about here?

[fred57]

fred57:

Nope, it just means that I am even more dependent on the Atonement of Jesus the Christ.

But, the command is directed a you to be perfect, not more dependent.

[Senator]

Why start another thread to talk about the same thing we're talking about here?

We're not talking about the same thing.

You're wanting to show a doctrinal fallacy on the LDS behalf regarding salvation and the requirements thereof.

I'm wanting to talk about the church institution and our perceptions of it.

See any difference?

[thesometimesaint]

fred57:

And I will be made perfect as long as I take advantage of the Atonement of Jesus the Christ?

[fred57]

We're not talking about the same thing.

You're wanting to show a doctrinal fallacy on the LDS behalf regarding salvation and the requirements thereof.

I'm wanting to talk about the church institution and our perceptions of it.

See any difference?

Nope.

[fred57]

fred57:

And I will be made perfect as long as I take advantage of the Atonement of Jesus the Christ?

But that's not what the verse is telling you to do.

[thesometimesaint]

fred57:

I don't believe ANY verse in the Bible should be taken in isolation.

[Deborah]

I've always thought of the church being perfect in the sense that it was established by Christ, who is perfect, with the foundation and organization of the Priesthood. In other words it's the organization representing Christ that is perfect even though those running it have many flaws.

[Senator]

I've always thought of the church being perfect in the sense that it was established by Christ, who is perfect, with the foundation and organization of the Priesthood. In other words it's the organization representing Christ that is perfect even though those running it have many flaws.

So, in other words, it's perfectly legitimate.

[cinepro]

This is probably the most interesting study on the relationship between the Gospel and the Church, and how the Church itself wants us to see that relationship:

The Gospel and the Church

[Senator]

This is probably the most interesting study on the relationship between the Gospel and the Church, and how the Church itself wants us to see that relationship:

The Gospel and the Church

IN...TER...RES..TING!

I had not seen that before.

[Senator]

Duplicate post

[fred57]

fred57:

I don't believe ANY verse in the Bible should be taken in isolation.

What does that have to do with you obeying the command "Be ye perfect"?

[thesometimesaint]

fred57:

You are taking one verse and trying to condemn the Saints for not being perfect in this life. I've got news for you we ain't perfect. Deal with it.

I do the best I can, repent as necessary, and depend on Christ to make up the difference.

[fred57]

I've always thought of the church being perfect in the sense that it was established by Christ, who is perfect, with the foundation and organization of the Priesthood. In other words it's the organization representing Christ that is perfect even though those running it have many flaws.

Not sure if you've read through the thread, but what you've written is similar to what someone else wrote. Imagine if we applied such logic when it came to a doctor's visit. He tells you your health is perfect, except for that 99% blockage in your heart that he doesn't tell you about. So much for perfect health.

[cinepro]

IN...TER...RES..TING!

I had not seen that before.

The original version is even on

.

[fred57]

fred57:

You are taking one verse and trying to condemn the Saints for not being perfect in this life. I've got news for you we ain't perfect. Deal with it.

I do the best I can, repent as necessary, and depend on Christ to make up the difference.

Interesting system you have there, but I don't recall seeing anywhere where it says "Do your best," and if you won't do it, then Christ will make up the difference. It says "Be ye perfect." So why won't you obey?

[Ahab]

This is probably the most interesting study on the relationship between the Gospel and the Church, and how the Church itself wants us to see that relationship:

The Gospel and the Church

I don't know if it's the most interesting, but I did find it very interesting. I also noticed that I got more out of it by comparing what was before with what was after, and I plan to keep that method of comparison in my mind when I listen and then compare that with what I read after.

Thank you VERY MUCH for this, cinepro.

Extra blessings for this act are coming your way, supposing you haven't already received them.

[thesometimesaint]

fred57;

Fascinating. Do you believe in repentance?

[Ahab]

Interesting system you have there, but I don't recall seeing anywhere where it says "Do your best," and if you won't do it, then Christ will make up the difference. It says "Be ye perfect." So why won't you obey?

He won't obey, when he doesn't obey, because he would rather do his own will than the will of our Father in heaven.

That's the reason anyone commits any sin, whenever they commit any sin, fred.

There. I've now answered your question truthfully, and in English.