Score Another Point for Joseph Smith

[consiglieri]

Moses 7:30 contains a strange and not at all self-evident reference to God's curtains being "stretched out still" in a context that obviously links it in some manner to God's creations:

[Enoch speaking] And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

What do curtains have to do with creations?

In her paper, "Beyond the Veil of the Temple," Margaret Barker may give us some insight, in which she suggests "that those who passed beyond the veil and entered the sanctuary entered the first day of creation, a curious idea, but one for which there is much evidence, and one that explains how the firmament separating heaven and earth was also the temple veil on which history was depcited in the Apocalypse of Abraham: 'Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation . . . and the creatures that are in it and the age prepared after it . . .' (Ap. Abr. 21.1-2)"

Later in the same paper, Ms. Barker refers to a passage in Job 26 which speaks of God "covering his throne," and explains, "'Covering the throne' is not usually associated with the process of creation, unless the reference is to the veil which screened the sanctuary and did in fact cover the throne. Wisdom, as the serpent in Eden had said, made humans divine, exactly what happened to those who entered the sanctuary and, by implication, witnessed the creation."

Of especial interest is the fact this idea shows up in a book attributed to Enoch: "Enoch, the high priest figure who entered the holy of holies, did know about these things; in 2 Enoch he is taken to stand before the throne in heaven, anointed and transformed into an angel. (Here note that Moses 7:3 has Enoch "clothed upon with glory," and Moses 7:24 has Enoch "high and lifted up.") Then he is shown the great secret of the creation. . . . Enoch is enthroned next to Gabriel and shown how the LORD created the world, beginning with heaven, earth and sea, the movement of the stars, the seasons, the winds and the angels (2 En.23)."

In sum, the linkage in Moses 7:30 to God's curtains (veil) being "stretched out still" and God's creations seems to fit quite well the ancient view of God's creations being portrayed on the inner side of the curtain or veil of the temple, which only God is able to see from his viewpoint on the throne within the sanctuary, or Holy of Holies. This view is also accessible to those whom God invites into his presence within the veil, and this appears to be precisely what Enoch is referring to in Moses 7:30.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rob Bowman]

consiglieri,

Are you saying this is a "point" for Joseph Smith because this idea of creation involving "curtains" being "stretched out" is an ancient concept that Smith could not naturally have known? If so, I would suggest that Smith could easily have derived it from the Old Testament:

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Is. 40:22 KJV).

"Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain" (Ps. 104:2 KJV).

[consiglieri]

Yes.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Care to respond?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[BCSpace]

[Enoch speaking] And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

I see it as a reference to the infinite (relative to us) extent of God's creations. The curtains being a reference to God's sphere of influence. That which His "curtains" (or skirts?) cover is that which He has jursidiction over.

[Zakuska]

I see it as a reference to the infinite (relative to us) extent of God's creations. The curtains being a reference to God's sphere of influence. That which His "curtains" (or skirts?) cover is that which He has jursidiction over.

So what happens when the curtians are removed, and the earth rolls together as a scroll?

[The King's Servant]

consiglieri,

Are you saying this is a "point" for Joseph Smith because this idea of creation involving "curtains" being "stretched out" is an ancient concept that Smith could not naturally have known? If so, I would suggest that Smith could easily have derived it from the Old Testament:

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Is. 40:22 KJV).

"Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain" (Ps. 104:2 KJV).

It appears that this term of the stretched curtain was borrowed from the older Scripture of the Bible. Much of the Book of Mormon seems to borrow phraseology from the more ancient text. This doesn't seem to provide any "points" for Smith, but is actually evidence for the belief that the Book of Mormon was manufactured by Smith who used many verses from the Bible, inserting them into the text (along with errors in the KJV translation).

For further info: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html

[why me]

It appears that this term of the stretched curtain was borrowed from the older Scripture of the Bible. Much of the Book of Mormon seems to borrow phraseology from the more ancient text. This doesn't seem to provide any "points" for Smith, but is actually evidence for the belief that the Book of Mormon was manufactured by Smith who used many verses from the Bible, inserting them into the text (along with errors in the KJV translation).

The only problem is that JS did not have time to research through the bible to write the book of mormon. I also don't think that he had the smarts to do so. He was focused on the farm and money digging.

[The King's Servant]

The only problem is that JS did not have time to research through the bible to write the book of mormon. I also don't think that he had the smarts to do so. He was focused on the farm and money digging.

Not according to his mother; in fact, after he received the plates he joined semi-officially with the Methodists, and expounded Scripture. No, he knew the Bible, and he could certainly open it and copy. For instance:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html

[Doctor Steuss]

Not according to his mother; in fact, after he received the plates he joined semi-officially with the Methodists, and expounded Scripture. No, he knew the Bible, and he could certainly open it and copy. For instance:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html

You might want to look for another source other than his mother for supporting claims of Joseph's prodigious knowledge and study of the Bible. She tends to affirm the opposite repeatedly in her autobiography.

[The King's Servant]

You might want to look for another source other than his mother for supporting claims of Joseph's prodigious knowledge and study of the Bible. She tends to affirm the opposite repeatedly in her autobiography.

No, I think I'll stick with what his mother said - mothers know a lot more about their kids than anybody else.

[emeliza]

It appears that this term of the stretched curtain was borrowed from the older Scripture of the Bible. Much of the Book of Mormon seems to borrow phraseology from the more ancient text. This doesn't seem to provide any "points" for Smith, but is actually evidence for the belief that the Book of Mormon was manufactured by Smith who used many verses from the Bible, inserting them into the text (along with errors in the KJV translation).

Um...we aren't looking at the BoM. We are looking at the PoGP.

The PoGP is way cool because it gets into a lot of the deeper things about the creation story and the heavens.

[consiglieri]

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Is. 40:22 KJV).

"Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain" (Ps. 104:2 KJV).

In the first place, when writing the OP, I did a search on the subject in the scriptures and came up with the above two passages. I will state frankly that, in my 30+ years of intensive Bible studies, I could not have told you they even existed, so obscure are they.

In the second place, both of these Bible verses have to do with the idea of stretching out the heavens as a curtain; this is a different use of the term "curtains" than appears in Moses 7:30, in which the reference is clearly to the extent of God's creations in terms of worlds, not heavens.

Moses chapter 7 seems to clearly depict Enoch being "clothed upon with glory" and being "high and lifted up" as he enters into the Holy of Holies in order to converse with God, and be given a vision of all things; not only of all generations of men and all of their deeds, but also of the worlds God has created.

A more direct bull's-eye for Joseph Smith would be difficult to conceive.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

The only problem is that JS did not have time to research through the bible to write the book of mormon.

Not according to his mother

You might want to look for another source other than his mother for supporting claims of Joseph's prodigious knowledge and study of the Bible. She tends to affirm the opposite repeatedly in her autobiography.

No, I think I'll stick with what his mother said - mothers know a lot more about their kids than anybody else.

If you insist...

I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any ever lived upon the face of the earth

[emeliza]

No, I think I'll stick with what his mother said - mothers know a lot more about their kids than anybody else.

I think what Stuess is saying is that his mom also said the opposite about him. So when was she lying? Or when was she boasting about her kid and when was she not?

[consiglieri]

KIng'S Servant (KISS) will soon learn not to mess with Daktari.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rob Bowman]

It's a little on the fringes of the subject of this thread, but on the subject of the young Joseph Smith's study of the Bible, see the following article (by yours truly):

http://irr.org/mit/young-Joseph-Smith-study-the-bible.html

[consiglieri]

It appears that this term of the stretched curtain was borrowed from the older Scripture of the Bible.

I fear you may be so wedded to your disbelief that you are blinded to what is staring you in the face.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rob Bowman]

Consigilieri,

You wrote:

In the first place, when writing the OP, I did a search on the subject in the scriptures and came up with the above two passages. I will state frankly that, in my 30+ years of intensive Bible studies, I could not have told you they even existed, so obscure are they.

Please, don't make me say it....

Look, I want to be nice, but how can you say something like this? I kind of understand someone missing Psalm 104 (though not in "30+ years of intensive Bible studies"), but Isaiah 40 is one of the most popular chapters in the Old Testament, quoted often in the New Testament and rich with allusions to the coming of Christ. There is absolutely nothing "obscure" about Isaiah 40.

I'll have to comment on the rest of your post later.

[consiglieri]

I'll have to comment on the rest of your post later.

When you come back, you might want to refine your comments more to the obscure mention of a curtain being stretched out rather than the chapters in their entirety.

I thought I was being clear, but perhaps not.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[handys003]

It appears that this term of the stretched curtain was borrowed from the older Scripture of the Bible. Much of the Book of Mormon seems to borrow phraseology from the more ancient text. This doesn't seem to provide any "points" for Smith, but is actually evidence for the belief that the Book of Mormon was manufactured by Smith who used many verses from the Bible, inserting them into the text (along with errors in the KJV translation).

For further info: http://www.infidels..../bom_bible.html

Manufactured? Really now he "really" had access to all the Hebrew texts in the western frontier? Give me a break.

JS:Excuse Mrs. Librarian. May I have access to the Book of Moses 6 and 7.

Librarian: Book of Moses what?

JS: Yes please. You know the books originating from the Kabbalah!

Librarian: The what!

JS: The Hebrew Torah that contains the incantations of spells given to Moses of the OT. That one please.

Librarian: Heretic! I'm calling the Sheriff. Burn the witch!

Yeah he had access too such knowledge.

[volgadon]

What Consiglieri is saying, and I agree with him absolutely, is that the concept expressed by Enoch in the book of Moses is not found in those two verses quoted from the Bible. The only things they share in common is curtains and stretched out.

[consiglieri]

As much as I am impressed by the "curtains/creations" correlation (ouch!), I am finding the entire cluster of ancient allusions to the heavenly ascent of Enoch in Moses 7 to be breathtaking.

Moses 7 describes Enoch as "high and lifted up," "clothed upon with glory," is "in the bosom of the Father," and is given the right to sit on "God's throne" (likely the mercy seat). All of this seems to be done as part of a divine ascent into the heavenly Holy of Holies as Enoch is conducted behind the veil to commune with, and in some way, become one with God.

Being one with God ("in the bosom of the Father"), Enoch is now accorded the ability to see what God sees (all generations unto the end of the world, together with the deeds of all men), Enoch also sees those things that are "invisible" to the eyes of men, and Enoch is allowed to see all the creations of the Father. Not only this, but being accorded the privilege of being in the bosom of the Father, Enoch now feels as God feels and his soul stretches wide as eternity over the wickedness of man and Enoch joins God in weeping over them. (Moses 7:41)

Margaret Barker has documented how these visions were given to the righteous who had entered the sanctuary by being displayed upon the interior side of the veil, or curtains, which hide God's glorious presence from the rest of humanity, lest they be consumed.

What are the odds?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Kevin Christensen]

As much as I am impressed by the "curtains/creations" correlation (ouch!), I am finding the entire cluster of ancient allusions to the heavenly ascent of Enoch in Moses 7 to be breathtaking.

Moses is "high and lifted up," "clothed upon with glory," is "in the bosom of the Father," and is given the right to sit on "God's throne" (likely the mercy seat). All of this seems to be done as part of a divine ascent into the heavenly Holy of Holies as Enoch is conducted behind the veil to commune with, and in some way, become one with God.

Being one with God ("in the bosom of the Father"), Enoch is now accorded the ability to see what God sees (all generations unto the end of the world, together with the deeds of all men), Enoch also sees those things that are "invisible" to the eyes of men, and Enoch is allowed to see all the creations of the Father. Not only this, but being accorded the privilege of being in the bosom of the Father, Enoch now feels as God feels and his soul stretches wide as eternity over the wickedness of man and Enoch joins God in weeping over them. (Moses 7:41)

Margaret Barker has documented how these visions were given to the righteous who had entered the sanctuary by being displayed upon the interior side of the veil, or curtains, which hide God's glorious presence from the rest of humanity, lest they be consumed.

What are the odds?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Good insights, once again.

I'm away from my books, but I also recall Nibley discussing the veils/curtains in Treasure in the Heavens and Enoch the Prophet, in the "A Strange Thing in the Land" portion.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[consiglieri]

Good insights, once again.

I'm away from my books, but I also recall Nibley discussing the veils/curtains in Treasure in the Heavens and Enoch the Prophet, in the "A Strange Thing in the Land" portion.

Thanks for pointing that out, Kevin.

I am not surprised that Hugh Nibley was way ahead of the pack on this.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Kevin Christensen]

Thanks for pointing that out, Kevin.

I am not surprised that Hugh Nibley was way ahead of the pack on this.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes.. but that doesn't mean that me made the same connections that you have. You just might consider comparing what he has with the Temple/Ascent context you are looking at. As I recall, he was looking at cosmology.

Best

Kevin Christensen