Score Another Point for Joseph Smith

[Walden]

Moses 7:30 contains a strange and not at all self-evident reference to God's curtains being "stretched out still" in a context that obviously links it in some manner to God's creations:

What do curtains have to do with creations?

In her paper, "Beyond the Veil of the Temple," Margaret Barker may give us some insight, in which she suggests "that those who passed beyond the veil and entered the sanctuary entered the first day of creation, a curious idea, but one for which there is much evidence, and one that explains how the firmament separating heaven and earth was also the temple veil on which history was depcited in the Apocalypse of Abraham: 'Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation . . . and the creatures that are in it and the age prepared after it . . .' (Ap. Abr. 21.1-2)"

Later in the same paper, Ms. Barker refers to a passage in Job 26 which speaks of God "covering his throne," and explains, "'Covering the throne' is not usually associated with the process of creation, unless the reference is to the veil which screened the sanctuary and did in fact cover the throne. Wisdom, as the serpent in Eden had said, made humans divine, exactly what happened to those who entered the sanctuary and, by implication, witnessed the creation."

Of especial interest is the fact this idea shows up in a book attributed to Enoch: "Enoch, the high priest figure who entered the holy of holies, did know about these things; in 2 Enoch he is taken to stand before the throne in heaven, anointed and transformed into an angel. (Here note that Moses 7:3 has Enoch "clothed upon with glory," and Moses 7:24 has Enoch "high and lifted up.") Then he is shown the great secret of the creation. . . . Enoch is enthroned next to Gabriel and shown how the LORD created the world, beginning with heaven, earth and sea, the movement of the stars, the seasons, the winds and the angels (2 En.23)."

In sum, the linkage in Moses 7:30 to God's curtains (veil) being "stretched out still" and God's creations seems to fit quite well the ancient view of God's creations being portrayed on the inner side of the curtain or veil of the temple, which only God is able to see from his viewpoint on the throne within the sanctuary, or Holy of Holies. This view is also accessible to those whom God invites into his presence within the veil, and this appears to be precisely what Enoch is referring to in Moses 7:30.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If this is what is considered a "point" for Joseph Smith, than I will take your arguments against "anti-mormons" points as being contrived, convaluted or reaching with a grain of salt.

(and I use the term "your arguments" in the mormon community sense, not you personally Consiglieri)

[consiglieri]

Yes.. but that doesn't mean that me made the same connections that you have. You just might consider comparing what he has with the Temple/Ascent context you are looking at. As I recall, he was looking at cosmology.

Thanks again.

Whatever these connections may be worth, I would never have made them if it hadn't been for Margaret Barker's groundbreaking work, and for your introducing me to her research through your paradigm paper.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

If this is what is considered a "point" for Joseph Smith, than I will take your arguments against "anti-mormons" points as being contrived, convaluted or reaching with a grain of salt.

(and I use the term "your arguments" in the mormon community sense, not you personally Consiglieri)

No problemo, mi amigo!

I expect that "points," like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I e-mailed Margaret Barker this morning a reformatted copy of posts 1 and 22 in this thread, and was surprised to have heard back from her by the time I returned from lunch.

She graciously dubbed it a "most interesting piece," and hoped that I have the chance to develop it further.

Whattaya know?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jadams_4242]

In the first place, when writing the OP, I did a search on the subject in the scriptures and came up with the above two passages. I will state frankly that, in my 30+ years of intensive Bible studies, I could not have told you they even existed, so obscure are they.

In the second place, both of these Bible verses have to do with the idea of stretching out the heavens as a curtain; this is a different use of the term "curtains" than appears in Moses 7:30, in which the reference is clearly to the extent of God's creations in terms of worlds, not heavens.

Moses chapter 7 seems to clearly depict Enoch being "clothed upon with glory" and being "high and lifted up" as he enters into the Holy of Holies in order to converse with God, and be given a vision of all things; not only of all generations of men and all of their deeds, but also of the worlds God has created.

A more direct bull's-eye for Joseph Smith would be difficult to conceive.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

i do agree with that 100%; and almost anything margret barker teaches is for the most part very accurate.

[charity]

If you insist...

What a gotcha, Doc. You hoisted him on his own petard.

[Bernard Gui]

Moses 7:30 contains a strange and not at all self-evident reference to God's curtains being "stretched out still" in a context that obviously links it in some manner to God's creations:

What do curtains have to do with creations?

Here are some curtains involved with creations:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap081019.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap091222.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap091018.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap091006.html

What better word than curtains to describe these vast expanses of gas and dust

in which planets and stars are born?

Bernard