Craig Criddle on If/And Conditional Sentences

[DanGB]

Hey, Dan. Did you ever read my post #65 above, wherein I extensively quoted a couple of non-Mormon academics who, way back in 1997, concluded that Mormon apologetic scholarship was 'rigorous', 'sophisticated,' and often accepted by the wider academic community, frequently without anyone realising it? I know you're not really into reading and things like that, so I tried to highlight just a few of the more salient but rather short passages from their paper for you. What did you think?

Hamba, read it! Not really on point though.

Was specifically looking where LDS scharship on " the historicity claim of the BOM" has been found credible and convincing with the secular academic community. I know we have good scholarship in areas of common and accepted interests. Just askng if it has ever covered the BOM history works.

[William Schryver]

I thought you said it wasn't an issue of semantics and that Joseph did not translate the plates but rather that God did. (pardon me if I previously misunderstood you) I am gonna need clarification. Yes or no, did Joseph 'translate' the Book of Mormon?

It seems that, in order for me to clarify for you, you're going to have to first clarify for me.

What do you mean by "translate"? I think I've already explained what I believe the word means in the context of the production of the Book of Mormon. What do you think it means?

[William Schryver]

1828 Webster's Dictionary:

/snip

Bernard

Thanks, Bernard. The old trusty 1828 Webster's serves well to illustrate my point that the typical 21st century understanding of the multi-hued meanings of the word "translate" is actually quite misinformed, or at least under-informed.

[William Schryver]

DanGB:

No. What I am suggesting in the specific area of BOM claims, beit the claim of reformed Egyptian or the people places and cultures thatexisted, the mere claim of an ancient history, a record of the history andgreat scholarship linking all this together would hardly be ignored by the veryprofessionals and academians (sic) mostlikely to have a passion for this area of interest. It simply makes no sense.

You are excessively, if not intentionally, na

[Glenn101]

Hamba, read it! Not really on point though.

Was specifically looking where LDS scharship on " the historicity claim of the BOM" has been found credible and convincing with the secular academic community. I know we have good scholarship in areas of common and accepted interests. Just askng if it has ever covered the BOM history works.

Dan,

There many scholars with degrees in fields which relate directly to areas of the Book of Mormon who are also faithful LDS. They have produced volumes of research related to the historicity of the Book of Mormon. To this point there have been few if any non-LDS scholars with similar qualifications who have made any attempt to debunk any of that scholarship.

The closest attempt right now that I know of is the recent Jockers-Criddle wordprint study. It does not actually refute the previous studies by LDS scholars but has brought up some questions which I understand are going to be answered one way or another by a forthcoming article by LDS scholars soon.

Most if not all of the attacks on LDS scholarship are by those who do not have the qualifications/education to offer a credible rebuttal.

Glenn

[Bernard Gui]

I've posted this several times, but have never had any comments. Seems to me this

is an excellent description of how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon using

the seer stone.

From the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, the manner in which the high priest

received revelation from the Urim V'Tummim:

The process of questioning for Divine aid with the Urim V'Tummim was done in the following manner: When a question arose whose implications were so consequential that the entire congregation of Israel would be effected-such as, for example, the question of whether or not to go out to war - then, the King of Israel (or the commanding officer of the army) would ask his question before the High Priest. An ordinary person, or someone not representing the entire community would not ask of the urim v'tummim.

The High Priest stands facing the Ark of the Testimony, and the questioner stands behind him, facing the priest's back. The questioner does not speak out loud, neither does he merely think the question in his heart; he poses his query quietly, to himself - like someone who prayers quietly before his Creator. For example, he will ask "Shall I go out to battle, or shall I not go out?"

A Meditative Experience and a Prophetic Revelation

The High Priest is immediately enveloped by the spirit of Divine inspiration. He gazes at the breastplate, and by meditating upon the holy names of G-d, the priest was able to receive the answer through a prophetic vision-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question. The priest then informs the questioner of the answer.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-8.htm

Comments?

Bernard

[DanGB]

To this point there have been few if any non-LDS scholars with similar qualifications who have made any attempt to debunk any of that scholarship.

Most if not all of the attacks on LDS scholarship are by those who do not have the qualifications/education to offer a credible rebuttal.

I hear this alot. But what actual qualifcations are needed? The BOM s not a long nor difficult read. If it were we would not be asking prospective members to read and pray about it!!

What about Michael Coe? Is he lacking in ability based upon whatever you seem to think the "qualifications" need to be???

[volgadon]

Not really on point though.

That seems to be how he designates things which answer his questions.

[volgadon]

I hear this alot. But what actual qualifcations are needed? The BOM s not a long nor difficult read. If it were we would not be asking prospective members to read and pray about it!!

What about Michael Coe? Is he lacking in ability based upon whatever you seem to think the "qualifications" need to be???

If one is going to declare the BoM ahistorical fiction, it would be nice if you possesed at least some knowledge oof the ANE or pre-Columbian Americas.

[LeSellers]

1828 Webster's Dictionary:

I believe I said that earlier.

Click for more information.

Lehi

[Bernard Gui]

Was specifically looking where LDS scharship on " the historicity claim of the BOM" has been found credible

and convincing with the secular academic community. I know we have good scholarship in areas of common

and accepted interests. Just askng if it has ever covered the BOM history works.

I'm trying to get a picture of what the secular community might find to criticize.

Would they bother with internal issues of the Book of Mormon? For example,

the oft ridiculed use of the French word "adieu" in a Hebrew text? Or what

exactly was the "skin of blackness"? Or how many Nephites died in the great

last battle? This kind of thrashing comes from the religious community, usually

of the Evangelical persuasion.

By secular, do you mean non-believing authorities, atheists, religious but

not Mormon? I imagine few of them can get past the title page and the purpose

of the book as stated therein without loosing their cookies. "Are you serious?

A book interpreted by the gift of God?" No one could concede that!

Of course, they are free to take on such things as Nahom, if/and construction, parallelisms, and

other items discussed by Mormons, because such things are widely published by Mormon scholars. If they

choose not to join the fray, how can the Mormons force them? They certainly could not

concede that Joseph Smith got it right, could they? Their conclusions would be made

long before the discussion even began, don't you think?

How about the question, "Were there Nephites"? How could that be argued with a

secular scholar?

Bernard

[Daniel Peterson]

I seriously hope you reconsider.

Reconsider what?

I would bet paychecks that those who do anything worthwhile do it with passion. Those who teach, write, or perform at the top do so with passion or they never make it to the top!

Quite. So what?

What I am suggesting in the specific area of BOM claims, be it the claim of reformed Egyptian or the people places and cultures that existed, the mere claim of an ancient history, a record of the history and great scholarship linking all this together would hardly be ignored by the very professionals and academians most likely to have a passion for this area of interest. It simply makes no sense.

Perhaps. And yet, there it is.

There's no need to bring antiquity or the Book of Mormon into this: Mormonism claims that angels and, indeed, God the Father and the Son have visited places in the United States. Surely, all historians of American religion, who should naturally be interested in this, must be falling all over themselves to study Mormon history. And yet, although there are undeniably competent and well-respected Mormon historians who write on Mormon history, the stampede doesn't seem to have materialized. Why not?

Probably not a well thought through analogy

Entirely on point. A very good analogy, in fact.

But try to keep your eyes focused on the point at issue.

but I give you the benefit of not being very sports/athletic oriented.

You know nothing about me. Don't presume to know my personal interests.

Small town kids are discovered all the time.

And they're overlooked all the time.

Do you believe the LDS scholarship on BOM historicity seeks out and willingly submits it's work to the greatest level od academic and professional review with the same passionate confidence?

Yup. I do. Been there, done that.

Have you read Terryl Givens's By the Hand of Mormon (Oxford University Press)? Have you noticed that Maxwell Institute publications on the Book of Abraham are featured in catalogs from the University of Chicago Press? Have you attended the sessions that we run at the annual national meetings of the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Biblical Literature? Have you ever visited one of our literature displays at a national academic conference? Have you ever read any of the thousands of pages of material that the Maxwell Institute has up on line? What makes you think that Latter-day Saint scholars are failing to put their work before the eyes of the broader scholarly world?

[Glenn101]

I hear this alot. But what actual qualifcations are needed? The BOM s not a long nor difficult read. If it were we would not be asking prospective members to read and pray about it!!

What about Michael Coe? Is he lacking in ability based upon whatever you seem to think the "qualifications" need to be???

Archeologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoamerican training, anthropologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoameriacan training, linguists, especially with mesoamerican tongues, Hebrew scholars, Egyptian scholars, DNA scientists, philologists, etc.

The Book of Mormon may not be a long and difficult read, but it is hardly the "chloroform in print" that Samuel Clemens so derisively labeled it.

Michael Coe is a respected mesoamerican archeologist who does not believe that there is any evidence of the Book of Mormon anywhere in mesoamerica. At least he is not going to lose his testimony like Thomas Stuart Ferguson did because he could not find a sign that said "Nephi slept here, or Zarahemla 1000 cubits that-a-way.

Glenn

[Facsimile 3]

Archeologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoamerican training, anthropologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoameriacan training, linguists, especially with mesoamerican tongues, Hebrew scholars, Egyptian scholars, DNA scientists, philologists, etc.

The Book of Mormon may not be a long and difficult read, but it is hardly the "chloroform in print" that Samuel Clemens so derisively labeled it.

Glenn

But it has a book in it named Ether!

[Ariarates]

Can I ask a layman's question? Is it easier to write Hebrew in Egyptian characters than in Hebrew? Egyption hierglyphs seem so tedious to me. Why did they prefer Egyptian to their own script?

[Calm]

Can I ask a layman's question? Is it easier to write Hebrew in Egyptian characters than in Hebrew? Egyption hierglyphs seem so tedious to me. Why did they prefer Egyptian to their own script?

Reformed Egyptian would most likely not be the hieroglyphs you are thinking of. I'll look for an example, but it's a later script (off the top of my head I think they called it "demotic") that they are suggesting was used that was something of a short hand and would be able to 'compress' the Hebrew. I suggest if I don't find it before you read this post, that you go back and look at the links supplied about the issue, one of them likely gives the details.

Quick description reference here by Dr. Hamblin: http://maxwellinstit...19&num=1&id=636

Note that "demotic" is a cursive script.

An image of demotic from the FAIR site dealing with this issue:

http://en.fairmormon.org/File:180px-DemoticScriptsRosettaStoneReplica.jpg

[Ariarates]

Thanks for the info, Calmoriah. In the picture, the demotic sample indeed looks neither easier nor harder than Hebrew - at least to my untrained eye.

[LifeOnaPlate]

What about Michael Coe? Is he lacking in ability based upon whatever you seem to think the "qualifications" need to be???

One qualification would be a remote familiarity with the BoM, which Coe unfortunately lacks.

[LifeOnaPlate]

He's a photographer, but he has some interesting non-Mormon observations of the book of 1 Nephi:

http://www.apexstuff.com/ot/200711/exploration.asp

[Glenn101]

View Postglennthigpen, on 09 February 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

Archeologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoamerican training, anthropologists with Ancient Near Eastern and mesoameriacan training, linguists, especially with mesoamerican tongues, Hebrew scholars, Egyptian scholars, DNA scientists, philologists, etc.

The Book of Mormon may not be a long and difficult read, but it is hardly the "chloroform in print" that Samuel Clemens so derisively labeled it.

Glenn

But it has a book in it named Ether!

I had to come down out of my ethereal high to grasp the grave import of your announcement. Maybe I have been inhaling rather than reading.

Glenn

[gmormon]

But it has a book in it named Ether!

I had to come down out of my ethereal high to grasp the grave import of your announcement. Maybe I have been inhaling rather than reading.

Glenn

It must be that BFJ Humor