There is no free will if God is omniscient

[Doctor Steuss]

Something to wet the whistle on, and a slightly novel look at an old nut.

This will contain at least some overlap with the whistle wetter link, but might be worth leading a horse to.

Enjoy.

[cksalmon]

See Amos 7 Above.

Check out Amos 3.6, too.

cks

[Zakuska]

Speaking of Free will... Mike Reed had this to say on the Natural disaster thread... But I think its also has baring on this one.

Said LDS President Joseph F. Smith,

We believe that these severe, natural calamities are visited upon men by the Lord for the good of his children, to quicken their devotion to others, and bring out their better natures, that they may love and serve him. We believe, further, that they are the heralds and tokens of his final judgment, and the schoolmaster to teach the people to prepare themselves by righteous living for the coming of the Savior to reign upon the earth, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. (Gospel Doctrine [1975], 55.)

How exactly is that "Free Will"? We have the choice to tow the line or get out of his way?

[Brade]

It's not a non-sequitur.

While your statement is (hypothetically) true, free will is NOT concerned with the person's view of reality and what they think they can and can't do. It deals with the ultimate state of reality. If there is a god in this reality who KNOWS everything that you will do (while you have the freedom to choose from your own point of view), the fact that He knows what you will choose negates your free will.

You are no longer making choices, but rather you're carrying out the motions since everything is predetermined by His knowledge.

This is actually the mistake that I was referring to earlier (I think I referred to it earlier anyway). Unless you take the view that God created the initial state of affairs of the universe and the laws of nature, then it isn't God's knowledge that is predetermining anything at all. God's knowing of some future fact about what somebody will do is not what militates against that person's ability to do otherwise (free will). Rather, what militates against that person's ability to do otherwise is the mere fact that there is a fact about what they will do in the future, whether anyone knows that fact or not (me, you, or God).

The reason God's omniscience poses a problem for free will (in the sense of being able to do otherwise) is because God's omniscience entails the existence of future facts about what people will do. It's those facts, not God's knowledge of those facts, that undermines free will.

[Zakuska]

The reason God's omniscience poses a problem for free will (in the sense of being able to do otherwise) is because God's omniscience entails the existence of future facts about what people will do. It's those facts, not God's knowledge of those facts, that undermines free will.

But at the same time that fact that a choice was made at all even though its sometime in the future mittigates free will in the very fact that a choice is place before someone and is made.

[hordak]

If i knew my child would leave the house today and be struck by a car leaving them paralyzed would i be making the car hit them? No. But would i be a loving just parent?

If God knows the future and sends Sue to earth knowing she will be molested throughout her childhood, and work as a meth addicted prostitute before dying a horrible death.She also reject the gospel on both sides.

Or If he sent Billy, knowing that Billy would fall deeply in love with his wife and kids but reject the Gospel, deny the holy spirit and be a son of perdition would he be Just?

I'm not saying "why do bad things happen to good people" I know this life is short compared with eternity (worse in EV theology )but still it will turn out bad for some. Why send Billy through this great time knowing his experience is for nothing.( Like giving your kids a puppy for Christmas and the conditions they must take care of it when you know for a fact the won't and you will be taking it back next week.)

Why send Sue through the torment knowing she will go from that to outer darkness? (Like taking your kid who will die tomorrow to get the flu shot, then spanking him and sending him to his room without supper).

If God knows what choices we will make and where we will end up then the just and kind thing to do would be only, send the ones who will make it and just kick the outer darkness crowd out from the get go.

Then it gets more complex when you add in answered prayers. Ask God for a job, God helps you land that police job you dreamed of, your killed in the line of duty and the grief is to much so your wife commits suicide kids live a terrible foster care life end up in the telestial. The outcome was a result of free will but a just God wouldn't give you that job knowing the outcome IMO, not just the short earthly outcome but the eternal one.

I don't think God can know the future, be just and loving, and you have free will at the same time. To be just he cannot know the eternal outcome of the events he puts his children through.

[Zakuska]

I don't think God can know the future, be just and loving, and you have free will at the same time. To be just he cannot know the eternal outcome of the events he puts his children through.

Unless one interprets the strain of universal Salvation in the scriptures to it's extreme...

"And ALLl flesh shall see the Salvation of God"

"Even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive"

[mercyngrace]

Unless one interprets the strain of universal Salvation in the scriptures to it's extreme...

"And ALLl flesh shall see the Salvation of God"

"Even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive"

I wouldn't call that an extremist view.

Consider this:

...when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

Subdued ALL enemies?

PERFECTED His work?

Delivered the kingdom SPOTLESS?

Remember, salvation isn't exaltation. (That quote's from D&C 76, btw) Oh, and remember this is what Christ does after the souls are released from hell at the final resurrection.

[fahayeklives]

I look at God's foreknowledge as seeing past, present and future on a continuum. The reason he knows what we will do is because we have already done it in the future and he has seen that part of the line. It's easier to understand if you are a fan of Dr. Who.

Amen to that.

[BCSpace]

If God knew yesterday I was going to drink coca- cola today, then I have no free will to decide that.

Your thoughts?

Since you don't know with any surety (a knowledge of God and His level on omiscience is based on faith) that God knows this, then you must needs have free will. In addition, I'd say that if you knew wth a perfect knowledge that God knows this, there is still nothing preventing you from changing the outcome. So you still have free will.

[Jeff K.]

I had a friend in the Appalachian Hills. He and I went to see Star Wars together when it first came out. To say he was impressed by the movie is an understatement. In fact he was completely stunned by the massive special effects show and story. When we left he went in to see it again, and again, and again.

I saw him the next day and commented. "Why did you see it so many times?"

"Waaaelll, he drawled, I figured the first time it was pretty excit'n, but I weren't sure them thar boys could pull it off agin an' ag'n. Them boys got it down!"

What was the effect of my friend upon the movie? If you are outside of time and space and all things appear to you as in the present, it is much like watching a movie where you know the actions that are or will be taking place. In the movie the people made the choices without your influence, they had a will of their own. Einstein once stated time travel (in a direction other than the way we are going) wasn't possible because you cannot transfer information backwards over time.

We don't know how God defines agency, but we do know that agency requires choice and God is omniscient and that He has said we have agency. Aside from the first variable, everything else is fixed and apparently without contradiction.

[Mordecai]

It seems to me, if God sees you doing something wrong in a hypothetical future, He can warn you about it to help you make a different choice. God's omniscience makes us more free, if we are willing to hear what He is saying to us. If we're not willing, we're slaves.

[elguanteloko]

I think that Mormon doctrine would argue that your free will has not been compromised because of God's omniscience. You are still free to drink that Coke or not drink that Coke. Rather, because God is omniscient, he knows the will of your heart, and knows what that will will lead you to do...namely, drink that Coca-Cola. He is not making you drink it, he just knows you so well that he knows that when presented with the option, you will drink it.

Anyway, that's my best guess...

great

[thatjimguy]

It's like God is watching us through a time warp. He sees the actions and knows them already. He plants the question in the past and since he is omnipotent, can see the future simultaneously. To us, we still have to go through the motions for the answer to be completed.

[ed2276]

If God knew yesterday I was going to drink coca- cola today, then I have no free will to decide that.

Your thoughts?

You want to make God responsible for your decision to drink the coke is what is sounds like to me.

[handys003]

I had this discussion with the missionaries who maintain that HF knows every thing your going to do. It became heated and actually I put it in terms that embarrassed them to why HF does not know what exactly we are going to do every second of our lives. They got the point real fast. I cannot recite it here as it will get me banned by board guidelines, and quite frankly would embarrass members here by how I put the notion to the test.

I do not subscribe to to predestination. Omniscient and Omnipotent mean all-knowing and all-powerful it is in reference to knowing the things of the kingdom and ruling over the kingdom of heaven and it's powers. They know where we came from and who we are. It does not mean all-powerful over our lives as HF gives us the choices in the mortal world to decide our own paths of each second of every thought that we make. It also does not mean all-knowing of every thought and decision we choose to make our path.

It would be like the professor in a class giving the test who knew what answer each student would make before the test. What would be the point of any test if he knew before hand you would fail.

[BCSpace]

It became heated and actually I put it in terms that embarrassed them to why HF does not know what exactly we are going to do every second of our lives

I would say rather that He knows everything to a high degree of accuracy. Relative to us, it's omniscience.

[Tsjoeva]

quote

It would be like the professor in a class giving the test who knew what answer each student would make before the test. What would be the point of any test if he knew before hand you would fail.

I think you have a really good point. But I think there is an other option too. And I know, this is a Jewish thought about it. About the free will.

The Lord is Omniscient, but, because He made the human with a free will. So that part about the human, he gave that responsibility to the human self. But He knows all the options.. all the choices... and the following reactions of the choice that the human made. He knows all the answers. And He knows in what direction you are... And He wanted to push you in the right direction if you made mistakes.

I think the Lord doesn't wanted to know everything about the live, and the choice that the man made.

[Brade]

Since you don't know with any surety (a knowledge of God and His level on omiscience is based on faith) that God knows this, then you must needs have free will.

I don't think that's right. If God actually does know what I will do at every moment including all future moments, and I don't have free will, then my not knowing about all that doesn't mean that I have free will. I might mean that I think I have free will or that I feel that I have free will when I make choices.

In addition, I'd say that if you knew wth a perfect knowledge that God knows this, there is still nothing preventing you from changing the outcome. So you still have free will.

I'm not sure about this either. If God knows what I will do at every moment including all future moments, then I can't fail to do what God knows I will do. If I do something other than what God knows I will do, then that entails that God didn't actually know what I would do; rather, he merely believed I would do something, and, in fact, his belief would have been false. But, of course, God doesn't believe that false things are true, and he certainly doesn't know that something which is false is true. Thus, if God knows what I will do at every moment including all future moments, then I am not free to do something other than what God knows I will do. It would be incorrect, at least on the details we're going by, to assume that God is preventing me from changing the outcome. However, it would be correct to say that something is preventing me from changing the outcome. That "something" is the mere fact that there already are facts about what I am going to do, whether God knows those facts or not. If there are facts about what you will do in the future, then you cannot fail to do those things. If you do, those weren't facts about the future, and anyone that claimed to know them as facts was simply mistaken and had false beliefs.

[hordak]

I had this discussion with the missionaries who maintain that HF knows every thing your going to do. It became heated and actually I put it in terms that embarrassed them to why HF does not know what exactly we are going to do every second of our lives. They got the point real fast. I cannot recite it here as it will get me banned by board guidelines, and quite frankly would embarrass members here by how I put the notion to the test.

I do not subscribe to to predestination. Omniscient and Omnipotent mean all-knowing and all-powerful it is in reference to knowing the things of the kingdom and ruling over the kingdom of heaven and it's powers. They know where we came from and who we are. It does not mean all-powerful over our lives as HF gives us the choices in the mortal world to decide our own paths of each second of every thought that we make. It also does not mean all-knowing of every thought and decision we choose to make our path.

It would be like the professor in a class giving the test who knew what answer each student would make before the test. What would be the point of any test if he knew before hand you would fail.

Inquiring minds want to know, is there anyway you can clean it up with a different analogy? Could PM it?

[nicolasconnault]

I don't see the problem with an all-knowing God. What I believe is that, despite his complete knowledge, He has willingly decided to restrain his omnipotence in order to give us free will. God's desire is that we would all be saved and become like him, but that is impossible without our free agency. He has organised everything in a way that we will all get every possible opportunity to achieve our potential, but ultimately he refuses to withdraw our agency from us. The misuse of our agency is what decides where we end up. The failure of many of God's children to achieve their full potential goes against his divine will, but follows the demands of his infinite justice.

[nicolasconnault]

I had this discussion with the missionaries who maintain that HF knows every thing your going to do. It became heated and actually I put it in terms that embarrassed them to why HF does not know what exactly we are going to do every second of our lives. They got the point real fast. I cannot recite it here as it will get me banned by board guidelines, and quite frankly would embarrass members here by how I put the notion to the test.

That looks like a very big hook with a very small bait

[Lachoneus]

I am not free to do something other than what God knows I will do.

This is a tautology. We are never free to do other than what we will do, whether God knows it or not.

[Brade]

I don't see the problem with an all-knowing God. What I believe is that, despite his complete knowledge, He has willingly decided to restrain his omnipotence in order to give us free will.

Again, this misses the point. That God, on your view, restrains his omnipotence implies that he could know what everyone will do in the future if he wanted. But, that just means that there are facts about what you will do in the future. So, look, let's suppose that it's a fact that you will eat a red apple on January 5th 2011 at 12:00p where you live. But, let's take your view that God, to protect your agency, restrains his knowledge and does not know this fact. But, notice that whether God knows you will eat that apple or not, it's just a fact that you will. So, even if God restrains his knowledge, if it's true that he could know what you will do, then it's true that you can't do otherwise than what you will do

[Brade]

This is a tautology. We are never free to do other than what we will do, whether God knows it or not.

Sure, if determinism is true, or God is omniscient in the relevant way, then you're right, we are never free to do other than what we will do. That just means that we cannot do otherwise (i.e. we don't have free will in the sense of being able to do otherwise). I'm suggesting that that's false. That we can do otherwise, and that that just means that God doesn't know what we will do, because there just are no such facts as facts about what we will do. There are no future facts about what I will do tomorrow to be known, and God can't know facts that don't exist.