There is no free will if God is omniscient

[nicolasconnault]

I am not omniscient!

Yet, if I place two different kinds of ice cream in front of my child, I know which one he will choose.

Does my foreknowledge interfere with his agency? Does it eliminate his agency? Is it not he who makes the choice?

Edited to add: If I were omniscient, does it change anything here? If so, how?

This has been expressed in many forms already. Unfortunately these examples all fail in one regard: you don't know with Perfect knowledge which one he will choose, there is still a remote possibility, however small, that he may surprise you. Just like you, I don't believe that God can be surprised, because that means he would have to base his judgments and actions on incomplete information. In order words, he would have to make best-guess choices. That's an apt description of our mortal condition, but not of an exalted being like God.

[elguanteloko]

If it is a variable it is unknown-otherwise it a constant. If God knows the outcome he also knows the constant.

I agree, but this does not contribute anything in the free-will discussion. He knows the variables, constants, results. that does not mean He plugs in the values for those variables.

But what would be the motivation for manipulating your emotions? Wouldn't it be another emotion?

yes.

Without emotion you wouldn't move, you wouldn't do anything because nothing would matter to you.

correct.

Consequently any decision is a direct result of the emotions and thoughts which preceded it which come as a response to one's environment and yes the decisions previously made but those were also contingent on the emotions and thoughts resulting from the environment. The short argument is essentially this: decision can't occur independent of emotion-otherwise what motivates it?

well, certainly feelings motivate thought but I see free will in those thoughts which may manipulate feelings afterwards, not in the production of feelings. emotions are pretty much automatic. once an emotion, or several, promote thought I see free will only when one is conscious of this process; otherwise I just see it as impulse over impulse over impulse (the "natural man" in reality )... But when we get to be conscious of these processes and gain consciousness of ourselves (literally knowing ourselves) our free will expands and possibilities increase. I guess we have to draw a distinction: those that can manipulate it much and those that don't know how or may do it so little that it does not even shows.

Emotions are a product of our choices and our environment but the preceding choices were all based on the emotions resulting from the environment and previous choices and on and on until you start with the very first decision that a person makes which was based on emotions that were a pure response to one's environment as well as the perceived emotional benefits of the choice made and the individual in that first choice didn't choose the environment or the programmed emotional responses and therefore did not make the choice at all.

I see free will acting between the emotion and the reaction; it depends on how efficient we are in that short period of time.

[elguanteloko]

Right, and if God knows that we will touch the stove, and if God cannot ever be wrong, then it's false that we can fail to touch the stove. See how that works? Again, if God knows that you will perform X, and if God cannot ever be wrong, then it's false that you can fail to do X. The ability to do otherwise just means that you could perform X or you could choose to not perform X and instead perform Y. And, again, if God knows that you will perform X, and if God cannot ever be wrong, then you must perform X and you cannot do other than X. If you define "free will" as the ability to do otherwise (the ability to do Y instead of X), and if you cannot do other than X, then you do not have the ability to do otherwise; thus, you do not have free will.

not at all! His knowledge is dependent on YOU. He will never be wrong because He knows what you will choose, but YOU are what determines that knowledge in Him.

[Jason]

It wasn't the point of the movie, but the pre-cogs were clearly wrong, because he was warned ahead of time about what they saw in a possible future. At the moment he's about to commit murder, the pre-cog is there to tell him, "You have a choice." My interpretation was that the influence of the pre-cog was what helped him make a better choice. What I'm saying is, he was a slave to fate until he was influenced by one with greater knowledge than him, the pre-cog. It was that knowledge that made him free. This is more true in The Matrix, if we're going to stay on movie themes.

Spoilers

Not quite. Anderton (Tom Cruise's character) didn't prove that Pre-Crime didn't work, because he did, in fact, end up killing Leo Crow, within seconds of the predicted time.

It's Anderton's boss Burgess who proved they can be wrong, and he did it without a Pre-cog present telling him "you have a choice", though he and Anderton both theorized that the pre-cogs would predict his attempt to murder Anderton.

In The Matrix, everything the Oracle says will happen does. Neo does in fact have to wait until his next lifetime to be The One, and either he or Morpheus does have to die.

[nicolasconnault]

Sorry if I seem to post over and over, but as I'm in Australia, most of the participants in this conversation are asleep when I'm awake

The main controversy in this thread seems to be the idea that God doesn't know what choices we will make. I personally believe in the book of Mormon, and I think it contains at least one clear example of God's foreknowledge of our choices. You can find it in the vision given to Nephi in 1 Nephi 11-14. Nephi is clearly shown that the seed of Laman and Lemuel will rebel against God, and that his own posterity will eventually dwindle in unbelief and be destroyed by the Lamanites. The vision even includes the number of generations following Christ's visit, after which the Nephites will fall into transgression. This precision is repeated at least 4 times by various prophets. Alma even receives the revelation that this falling away will occur 400 years after the coming of Christ.

These prophecies were fulfilled in great detail, of course. The question is, if God cannot know our choices, how could he reveal these things to Nephi? Was it just a good guess?

[Luigi]

I agree, but this does not contribute anything in the free-will discussion. He knows the variables, constants, results. that does not mean He plugs in the values for those variables.

In order to get a solution, ie know the outcome, He can't plug in variables He would have to plug in constants, ie predetermined values.

well, certainly feelings motivate thought but I see free will in those thoughts which may manipulate feelings afterwards, not in the production of feelings. emotions are pretty much automatic. once an emotion, or several, promote thought I see free will only when one is conscious of this process; otherwise I just see it as impulse over impulse over impulse (the "natural man" in reality )... But when we get to be conscious of these processes and gain consciousness of ourselves (literally knowing ourselves) our free will expands and possibilities increase.I guess we have to draw a distinction: those that can manipulate it much and those that don't know how or may do it so little that it does not even shows.

That doesn't make any sense. You are saying there is some ambiguous moment where there is no emotion, just free will, but without emotion then outcomes become irrelevant. You may set emotion aside in a sort of way to evaluate the potential outcomes but even in choosing to do that there has to be an emotional motivation to do so. Certainly as I already mentioned the brain's ability to process multiple solutions given the available information can change from one persont to another but the relative desire for each outcome is still dependent on emotions.

I see free will acting between the emotion and the reaction; it depends on how efficient we are in that short period of time.

So free will is some moment where we make selections without any emotional impulse? Why make a decision without an emotional impulse? Without emotions there is no distinction between eternal bliss and eternal torture or even oblivion for that matter.

[handys003]

Inquiring minds want to know, is there anyway you can clean it up with a different analogy? Could PM it?

LOL! I don't believe God has pondered my next certain....eh I'll just PM you! Everyone else just let your imagination work instead.

[nicolasconnault]

LOL! I don't believe God has pondered my next certain....eh I'll just PM you! Everyone else just let your imagination work instead.

As I said, that looks like a very big hook with a very small bait. I'll wait for the real bait before I bite.

[handys003]

The test is a learning experience for the students, not a tool for the professor to determine who will pass.

Yes God knows exactly who will make it to the Celestial Kingdom and who won't. However we can't actually learn the skills we would need to function in the Celestial Kingdom without taking the test first.

Likewise God knows who will choose to do terrible actions worthy of condemnation to the lower kingdoms or even Outer Darkness. However it is manifestly unjust to condemn someone for what they will do rather than what they actually have done. These individuals must have the opportunity to actually commit those actions.

Without the actual experience we would not have the skills and not be worthy of condemnation or exaltation, and God's judgments could not be called just.

I think you miss the point as to my analogy to the missionaries. They recited with firm conviction that god is all-knowing to the point that he knows every little move down to the minute detail. When I'm going to turn right and what he has prepared for me down that path. i don't subscribe to that. It's like saying such as when I'm doing an activity, and the dog is peering over the bed at me, and saying good move there old boy! God says to the dog "I knew he was going to do that"!

Come on! You expect me to believe God knows my next move like that. I don't believe he gives a rats *** about my bed life with my wife. Okay! There I said it! Let the jokes begin! Except it was more graphic to the missionaries. Hated to embarrass the young men but it put them into a quick realization mode.

I do believe God knows what we are capable of doing and tries us. He also sets up events where the path may seem to be heading, but probably readjusts for alternatives, but that does not mean he knows ahead of time what I'm deciding if i don't even know myself until that moment.

[handys003]

As I said, that looks like a very big hook with a very small bait. I'll wait for the real bait before I bite.

You hooked yet?

[nicolasconnault]

You hooked yet?

nah, I'm allergic to that type of bait

Seriously, I was hoping for better than that. Just because you know something doesn't mean you care about it, and just because you don't care about something doesn't mean you don't know about it. Your argument is silly, you only managed to shut the missionaries up by being rude, their embarrassment had nothing to do with the validity of your argument.

I'll repeat my question: what doesn't God know about? Does he know when you will die? If he cannot know what people will choose, this single variable throws away any possibility of knowing for certainty anything about the future. Therefore, following your argument, God cannot know anything for sure about the future, whatsoever. His plans are therefore forever changing, in a state of constant flux. Is that what you believe?

[hordak]

I think you miss the point as to my analogy to the missionaries. They recited with firm conviction that god is all-knowing to the point that he knows every little move down to the minute detail. When I'm going to turn right and what he has prepared for me down that path. i don't subscribe to that. It's like saying such as when I'm doing an activity, and the dog is peering over the bed at me, and saying good move there old boy! God says to the dog "I knew he was going to do that"!

Come on! You expect me to believe God knows my next move like that. I don't believe he gives a rats *** about my bed life with my wife. Okay! There I said it! Let the jokes begin! Except it was more graphic to the missionaries. Hated to embarrass the young men but it put them into a quick realization mode.

I do believe God knows what we are capable of doing and tries us. He also sets up events where the path may seem to be heading, but probably readjusts for alternatives, but that does not mean he knows ahead of time what I'm deciding if i don't even know myself until that moment.

While i don't believe God knows the future i don't see that as proof. You might think it embarrassing but i don't think it is iron clad. BTW you could have changed it to using the bathroom as well.

Here is what i thought it was going to be,speaking of sexual in nature and missionaries. and while it isn't iron clad i think it holds more weight.

God calls people on missions, to be worthy of a mission you must meet certain criteria, not all missionaries meet this criteria or can keep it. I actually went to a ward where one young man was sent back early for sleeping with an investigator. Now I'm sure this is a pretty rare occurrence but there is a more common way a young man can break the law of chastity (as the church defines it) thought that is what it was about.

So would God call a young man to represent his church if he knew the actions that this young man would take while representing the church were wrong?

You could take it further and think about about George P Lee. I think if God knew what he would do, he would not have called him to be a GA?

[handys003]

nah, I'm allergic to that type of bait

Seriously, I was hoping for better than that. Just because you know something doesn't mean you care about it, and just because you don't care about something doesn't mean you don't know about it. Your argument is silly, you only managed to shut the missionaries up by being rude, their embarrassment had nothing to do with the validity of your argument.

I'll repeat my question: what doesn't God know about? Does he know when you will die? If he cannot know what people will choose, this single variable throws away any possibility of knowing for certainty anything about the future. Therefore, following your argument, God cannot know anything for sure about the future, whatsoever. His plans are therefore forever changing, in a state of constant flux. Is that what you believe?

Yes that is what I believe to some extent. I believe he has a future goal in mind. How it is achieved such as our salvation is up to us though. I do not accept micro-managing as something God does or else free will cannot exist and is an illusion. Example:You cannot tell me he knows ahead of time if I'm going to fall in to perdition to which end what would be the point of being born. When the possibility of it might not happen exists due to the PoS. It is at that very point at the moment of decision that determines the path we take and not God. See! I wish I had already thought of that analogy before saying my other point to the missionaries. Anyhow, our destination is of our own choosing and determined by every precise point of decision making in our lives to what paths we go. God just lays out the floor plan. How the house is built is up to us.

[Brade]

not at all! His knowledge is dependent on YOU. He will never be wrong because He knows what you will choose, but YOU are what determines that knowledge in Him.

Ok, look, let's start here. Just answer 'yes' or 'no'. Has it always been possible for God to know the future?

[nicolasconnault]

Yes that is what I believe to some extent. I believe he has a future goal in mind. How it is achieved such as our salvation is up to us though. I do not accept micro-managing as something God does or else free will cannot exist and is an illusion. Example:You cannot tell me he knows ahead of time if I'm going to fall in to perdition to which end what would be the point of being born. When the possibility of it might not happen exists due to the PoS. It is at that very point at the moment of decision that determines the path we take and not God. See! I wish I had already thought of that analogy before saying my other point to the missionaries. Anyhow, our destination is of our own choosing and determined by every precise point of decision making in our lives to what paths we go. God just lays out the floor plan. How the house is built is up to us.

Knowing everything doesn't mean meddling with everything. How many times do we have to parrot the same thing??

The point of being born is to get every possible opportunity to progress and be exalted through the use of our agency. The fact that God knows how you will use that agency doesn't mean he forces you to use it that way. You will benefit from making choices, by seeing the consequences of these choices, and, hopefully, by repenting when you realise you are in error.

Yes, our destination is our own choosing.

Knowledge isn't the same as Will.

If God cannot know anything about the future for certain, as you willingly accept it, does that mean that he was just "lucky" when he made the hundreds of prophecies that have come to pass? I gave the example of the prophecies regarding the fall of the Nephite nation. Was that just a lucky guess?

In my opinion, a God that doesn't know anything about the future cannot possibly make plans for an entire species or planet, unless he is willing to constantly interfere with the affairs of men, which would in fact remove our agency.

So, if you follow my reasoning, arguing that God cannot know the future at all demotes him from godship entirely if he is not willing to remove our agency in order to achieve his purposes. Or, maybe you believe that God doesn't have any purposes at all...

[Brade]

If he cannot know what people will choose, this single variable throws away any possibility of knowing for certainty anything about the future.

Now, that just doesn't follow. Even if God can't know for certain what free agents will do in the future, that doesn't entail that he can't know for certain anything about the future. Assuming God is powerful enough such that other beings can't foil the plans he intends to bring about by his own efforts, he could, for example, intend to explode the moon on December 21st, 2012. Thus, even if he didn't know a single thing about what anyone would do in the future, he could know that the moon would explode on December 21st, 2012. This is a ridiculous example, but it's easy to imagine all sorts of non-ridiculous things that God could know even if he couldn't know the outcome of future free choices. In any case, this silly example is enough to show that the conditional you assert is false.

[nicolasconnault]

Now, that just doesn't follow. Even if God can't know for certain what free agents will do in the future, that doesn't entail that he can't know for certain anything about the future. Assuming God is powerful enough such that other beings can't foil the plans he intends to bring about by his own efforts, he could, for example, intend to explode the moon on December 21st, 2012. Thus, even if he didn't know a single thing about what anyone would do in the future, he could know that the moon would explode on December 21st, 2012. This is a ridiculous example, but it's easy to imagine all sorts of non-ridiculous things that God could know even if he couldn't know the outcome of future free choices. In any case, this silly example is enough to show that the conditional you assert is false.

It's not that ridiculous. Someone on earth could actually explode the moon before that date. It is possible, isn't it? I still hold that my assertion is correct.

[Brade]

In my opinion, a God that doesn't know anything about the future cannot possibly make plans for an entire species or planet, unless he is willing to constantly interfere with the affairs of men, which would in fact remove our agency.

This shows a common misunderstanding about free will in the sense of being able to do otherwise (libertarian free will). Libertarians don't claim that in order for an agent to have free will every action of an agent must be a free choice. And, yes, I do think that God interferes with the affairs of men in order to bring about his plans. But, it just doesn't follow from that claim, that in so doing God removes our agency in the relevant sense of us being morally responsible for our actions.

[nicolasconnault]

This shows a common misunderstanding about free will in the sense of being able to do otherwise (libertarian free will). Libertarians don't claim that in order for an agent to have free will every action of an agent must be a free choice. And, yes, I do think that God interferes with the affairs of men in order to bring about his plans. But, it just doesn't follow from that claim, that in so doing God removes our agency in the relevant sense of us being morally responsible for our actions.

OK I'll go along with that. How exactly does God interfere, and to what purpose? Do you have real life examples? Scriptural examples?

[Brade]

It's not that ridiculous. Someone on earth could actually explode the moon before that date. It is possible, isn't it? I still hold that my assertion is correct.

Uh, ok, then replace "explode the moon" with "destroy 100,000,000 galaxies". Or, even simpler, suppose that God intends to clap his hands five times on December 21, 2012. There are a million and one counterexamples to your claim.

[nicolasconnault]

Uh, ok, then replace "explode the moon" with "destroy 100,000,000 galaxies". Or, even simpler, suppose that God intends to clap his hands five times on December 21, 2012. There are a million and one counterexamples to your claim.

OK I agree. Let me add some details to my claim: If God cannot predict our choices, he cannot know for certain about anything over which we may have any influence whatsoever through our choices. That means he cannot predict anything that will affect us in any way, because we may just die just before that happens because of each other's choices.

[Brade]

OK I agree. Let me add some details to my claim: If God cannot predict our choices, he cannot know for certain about anything over which we may have any influence whatsoever through our choices. That means he cannot predict anything that will affect us in any way, because we may just die just before that happens because of each other's choices.

There you go, that's better. And, yes, I accept that, more or less. Please note that I'm in no way making a claim that that's Church doctrine. In fact, I think it's not (by my understanding of doctrine and orthodoxy).

[handys003]

Knowing everything doesn't mean meddling with everything. How many times do we have to parrot the same thing??

The point of being born is to get every possible opportunity to progress and be exalted through the use of our agency. The fact that God knows how you will use that agency doesn't mean he forces you to use it that way. You will benefit from making choices, by seeing the consequences of these choices, and, hopefully, by repenting when you realize you are in error.

Yes, our destination is our own choosing.

Knowledge isn't the same as Will.

If God cannot know anything about the future for certain, as you willingly accept it, does that mean that he was just "lucky" when he made the hundreds of prophecies that have come to pass? I gave the example of the prophecies regarding the fall of the Nephite nation. Was that just a lucky guess?

In my opinion, a God that doesn't know anything about the future cannot possibly make plans for an entire species or planet, unless he is willing to constantly interfere with the affairs of men, which would in fact remove our agency.

So, if you follow my reasoning, arguing that God cannot know the future at all demotes him from godship entirely if he is not willing to remove our agency in order to achieve his purposes. Or, maybe you believe that God doesn't have any purposes at all...

Let's look at it one more time and if this clears it up more as to what I'm saying.

God has prophesied that I'm going to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and damn my self to the Outer Darkness for eternity. I don't think so! There would be no reason why God would create my spirit from intelligence to be his bemusing little toy to destroy. His love and grace assures that. He allowed me from the pre-mortal life to be born. To live and learn and to come back to him. A God that knows everything ahead of time to allow me to fall by his prophesy into Outer Darkness is to be a cruel God. That is not our Father. My belief is that God is not all-knowing. He has a goal and that is for his glorification. How the glory is achieved is determined by him. He wants us to come to him, and be like him but through our choices that we make. If it's correct fine. If not it's to bad so sad. I gave you the choice. That is what this life is about here. Not to be like him out of fear but out of love. The God I chose to believe in is kind and loving, not puling strings to control. That is what Lucifer wanted. Complete control and directing our lives. No it is fallacy to me to believe God knows everything in detail on how it is exactly going to happen like a little script in a play for his enjoyment. I will never accept that type of thinking ever!

[nicolasconnault]

There you go, that's better. And, yes, I accept that, more or less. Please note that I'm in no way making a claim that that's Church doctrine. In fact, I think it's not (by my understanding of doctrine and orthodoxy).

I don't know any church that accepts that as doctrine. In fact, I can't see how you could reconcile Bible or book of Mormon accounts with this idea. My own personal experiences with God run contrary to this idea also. However, if you have anything else than pure reasoning to back up that belief, I'd be very interested in knowing it. I'm very grateful for the scriptures, prophets and personal revelation, which are gifts from God to help us understand his divine character, where human reason fails.

"Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. " (Mosiah 4:9)

[nicolasconnault]

Let's look at it one more time and if this clears it up more as to what I'm saying.

God has prophesied that I'm going to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and damn my self to the Outer Darkness for eternity. I don't think so! There would be no reason why God would create my spirit from intelligence to be his bemusing little toy to destroy. His love and grace assures that. He allowed me from the pre-mortal life to be born. To live and learn and to come back to him. A God that knows everything ahead of time to allow me to fall by his prophesy into Outer Darkness is to be a cruel God.

You're not reading my posts. I made it clear to you that God knowing something doesn't mean He wants it to happen! Why do you keep making this assertion? Do you think that God didn't know that Christ would be crucified? Do you think that he didn't know Judas would betray him?