The Apostleship as a Path to Wealth

[Daniel Peterson]

What a wonderful employment work benefit! That adds up to a great deal of money if you have several kids to milk the system. If I was a General Authority, I'd milk it for all I could and get my kids a free education too! Wow.

It's too bad the average blue collar working man never gets those kinds of benefits.

It's class envy time!

There is no evidence that the Brethren have gotten wealthy off of the tithes and offerings of widows, orphans, and the poor. I've seen your intemperate and wild accusations against them over at the Compound, Paul. Slanders and slurs, if properly targeted, get a pretty good reception there. They won't here, though.

[ttribe]

It's too bad the average blue collar working man never gets those kinds of benefits.

It seems you have some serious class-envy issues exclusive of the Church that you continue to project back onto the Church.

[Paul Osborne]

Roughly 99.94% of Church leaders are unpaid, and those who are paid are evidently paid rather modestly.

What is modesty? That's open to interpretation. Salary and total benefits of GA's could be considerd high wages to a great many blue collar professionals.

Now, would a GA live on the salary of an average blue collar working man? You tell me.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

It's class envy time!

There is no evidence that the Brethren have gotten wealthy off of the tithes and offerings of widows, orphans, and the poor. I've seen your intemperate and wild accusations against them over at the Compound, Paul. Slanders and slurs, if properly targeted, get a pretty good reception there. They won't here, though.

Nobody is slandering anyone over here, brother Peterson. When it comes to wealth I like to count the actual amounts. That's why I'm curious as to how much President Hinckley was worth when he died. I don't know that figure. Do you? I assume the lawyers involved in the legal proceeding regarding his estate have a pretty good idea, but that information is confidential. Therefore, we both may be at a loss in knowing how many millions President Hinckley was worth at his passing.

Paul O

[Daniel Peterson]

What is modesty? That's open to interpretation. Salary and total benefits of GA's could be considerd high wages to a great many blue collar professionals.

Supply some salary figures for blue-collar professionals.

According to this site, average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker at the end of 2008 was approximately $73.21 per hour, which, assuming a 2000-hour work-year, would yield total annual compensation of $146,420.00, or essentially twice the figure that Ezra Taft Benson received during his first year as an apostle in adjusted 2009 dollars.

Now, would a GA live on the salary of an average blue collar working man? You tell me.

I think I just did.

[Paul Osborne]

It seems you have some serious class-envy issues exclusive of the Church that you continue to project back onto the Church.

You make a very good point. I would like to see some changes. I would like to see professional blue collar working men making a lot more money than they do. That is one reason why I feel General Authorities should have their salaries drastically cut, to set an example for the world and spread the wealth around. I would like to see their salaries and total benefits reduced to the wages of a plumber or a good carpenter.

I feel my ideas are inspired.

Paul O

[ttribe]

You make a very good point. I would like to see some changes. I would like to see professional blue collar working men making a lot more money than they do. That is one reason why I feel General Authorities should have their salaries drastically cut, to set an example for the world and spread the wealth around. I would like to see their salaries and total benefits reduced to the wages of a plumber or a good carpenter.

I think an economics class is in order.

I feel my ideas are inspired.

I feel your ideas are "inspired" by envy and bias.

BTW, the First Counselor in our Bishopric is a plumber by trade; near as I can tell, his income is well into the six-figure range. Perhaps GA's already have their "wage" equal to that of a plumber?

[Daniel Peterson]

Your ideas may well be inspired, Paul.

By what or by whom, though, is another question altogether.

Nobody is slandering anyone over here, brother Peterson.

And, of course, I didn't say that you were doing it over here.

You do it in the Compound.

When it comes to wealth I like to count the actual amounts. That's why I'm curious as to how much President Hinckley was worth when he died. I don't know that figure. Do you?

I don't. And, as you say, you don't.

Yet you assume that the figure was in the multi-millions, below. On what basis? None:

I assume the lawyers involved in the legal proceeding regarding his estate have a pretty good idea, but that information is confidential. Therefore, we both may be at a loss in knowing how many millions President Hinckley was worth at his passing.

And, at the Compound, you rail against the leaders of the Church, often obscenely.

On what basis? As you yourself acknowledge, on the basis of nothing at all.

[Daniel Peterson]

I would like to see some changes. I would like to see professional blue collar working men making a lot more money than they do. That is one reason why I feel General Authorities should have their salaries drastically cut, to set an example for the world and spread the wealth around. I would like to see their salaries and total benefits reduced to the wages of a plumber or a good carpenter.

"From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs."

"Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains. You have a world to gain!"

That's worked out well.

At least a hundred million dead, but, more directly germane to this thread, economic disaster everywhere it's been tried.

[Bsix]

Because of the .06% who get paid for clerical services, the Church cannot claim it has an unpaid clergy.

I will disagree. Given the choice of what is the most accurate and representative blanket statement:

A. The LDS Church has a paid clergy.

B. The LDS Church has an unpaid clergy.

I'd say that "B" is more universally and a fairer description. Thus, I'd say that the following statement is more accurate: " Because 99.94% of LDS ecclesiastical leaders do not get paid, the LDS Church can claim that is has an unpaid ministry.

Six

[Paul Osborne]

Supply some salary figures for blue-collar professionals.

According to this site, average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker at the end of 2008 was approximately $73.21 per hour, which, assuming a 2000-hour work-year, would yield total annual compensation of $146,420.00, or essentially twice the figure that Ezra Taft Benson received during his first year as an apostle in adjusted 2009 dollars.

The coveted blue collar work jobs at the auto industry are hardly a comprehensive representation of blue collar wages across this nation, let alone the world! Those numbers have some validity but are inflated by the employer's reports in any way they can make them look bigger than they actually are. Total work benefits may not actually be paid but could be available. Actuaries and administrators do everything they can to make the actual benefits look higher than they really are, on paper.

A working class man in Dallas may only make, say, $23.00 an hour plus benefits. I know a lot of blue collar men and they don't have total compensation anywhere near the figures the auto industry reports. If you came to Dallas, Dan, you can get a job as a blue collar working man and see for yourself what it really pays! I find it difficult to imagine that the General Authorities would be willing to live on the average wages of a blue collar professional, at least not here in Dallas. And Dallas is a pretty good place to work and live. Yes, I'd leave the Big Three figures out of the equation.

If you are ever in Dallas and unemployed, I'll help you get a job. It might not pay too well, but it's a job. Consider it part of the network. You're covered.

Paul O

[Malc]

I don't believe that I've ever made that argument in my life.

I agree. I have good friends who are pastors and priests, for whom I have great respect.

I don't recall ever confusing them with Peter Popoff or Jim Bakker.

And if you can ever find where I've ever suggested that all, or most, or even many Christian clergy are somehow equivalent to corrupt television evangelists, I'll happily concede my error and apologize.

And, by the same reasoning, Indonesia, which is often described as the world's most populous Islamic country, isn't really a Muslim country at all, because a whopping 13.9% of Indonesians aren't Muslims -- a stunning 232 times as big a percentage as the percentage of paid Mormon "clergy." Pakistan, with nearly 4% non-Muslims, can't be described as an Islamic country, either. Nor can Iran, with its still relatively vast population of 2% non-Muslims -- nearly thirty-five times the percentage of paid Mormon "clergy." And let's not speak of Egypt, whose citizens, by some estimates, could be as much as 25% non-Muslim -- which is nearly 420 times as large as the percentage of LDS leaders who receive living stipends.

Nor, for that matter, will it do to say that the oceans are water, since seawater has an average salinity of 3.5% -- meaning that every kilogram (1000 grams) of seawater contains roughly thirty-five grams of salt. In order to make the scale clearer still, every ten kilograms (10,000 grams) of seawater contains approximately 350 grams of salt. Yet, by contrast, only six of every ten thousand LDS Church leaders receive any pay.

Thus, if the LDS Church does not have an unpaid clergy, the Pacific Ocean is not a body of water, and neither Egypt nor Iran nor Pakistan nor Indonesia is a Muslim country.

This is not only silly. It's madness.

If I'm not mistaken, by common usage people don't interpret a description of a country as "Islamic" to mean that the country has no non-Muslim inhabitants - that is, that it necessarily excludes non Muslims. Perhaps some people believe that claiming that the USA is a Christian country means that all of its inhabitants are Christians, but I think that they would be in a minority.

Neither do I think that people generally think of salt water as not really water.

However, some may think that "the church has an unpaid clergy" means "the church has only unpaid clergy", or "the church does not have any paid clergy" - that is, that a church with an unpaid clergy excludes paid clergy - especially if the church in question has criticised other churches for having a paid clergy.

[bluebell]

What a wonderful employment work benefit! That adds up to a great deal of money if you have several kids to milk the system. If I was a General Authority, I'd milk it for all I could and get my kids a free education too! Wow.

It's too bad the average blue collar working man never gets those kinds of benefits.

Paul O

You did notice that this system is common among most colleges and universities, right?

The secretary at our local community college get's her education and that of her children for free. While not 'blue collar' perhaps, it does make your 'It's too bad the average blue collar working man never gets those kinds of benefits.' statement come off a bit drama-queen.

[Paul Osborne]

I feel your ideas are "inspired" by envy and bias.

BTW, the First Counselor in our Bishopric is a plumber by trade; near as I can tell, his income is well into the six-figure range. Perhaps GA's already have their "wage" equal to that of a plumber?

Could be, but my ideas are from my heart and I feel they are Jesuslike.

Sound's like the plumber in your ward has done very well for himself. Does he own his own business? Or, has he worked a great deal of overtime to achieve 6 figures? If not, tell him not to come to Dallas because he will take a huge pay cut if he does.

I don't think GA's have salaries and benefits as low as plumbers in Texas or various other countries around the world. I know a lot of working men that would love to have their incomes if they could only swap bank accounts. I was most sincere when I questioned how much was in President Hinckleys estate when he died. It must have been a huge sum. I really believe that and don't think anyone here can disprove that.

Paul O

[Daniel Peterson]

The coveted blue collar work jobs at the auto industry are hardly a comprehensive representation of blue collar wages across this nation, let alone the world!

I want you to live on the annual income of an Egyptian blue collar worker, Paul.

Show me you're serious about this.

You live like a Renaissance prince compared to the typical Egyptian worker.

A working class man in Dallas may only make, say, $23.00 an hour plus benefits.

In 67 hours, that working class man will have earned more than the average Egyptian worker makes in a year, even leaving his American health and other benefits, which the Egyptian doesn't receive, altogether out of the picture.

Get serious, Paul. Stop living like a lord and share your wealth.

I call upon you to sell your house and live in a tent, just as you've demanded that the Brethren do.

[Daniel Peterson]

I was most sincere when I questioned how much was in President Hinckleys estate when he died. It must have been a huge sum. I really believe that and don't think anyone here can disprove that.

And you can't prove that. Whether or not you "really believe" it is entirely irrelevant.

"It must have been a huge sum," you say. Based on what? Based on nothing.

[LeSellers]

And you can't prove that. Whether or not you "really believe" it is entirely irrelevant.

"It must have been a huge sum," you say. Based on what? Based on nothing.

Which illustrates my oft-repeated point that anti-Mormons, like Paul O, eventually (some immediately) distort, lie, fabricate, twist, imagine, and embellish "facts" to suit their purposes.

There is no exception to this rule that I have ever seen.

Lehi

[ttribe]

Could be, but my ideas are from my heart and I feel they are Jesuslike.

Your sincerity is overwhelming.

Sound's like the plumber in your ward has done very well for himself. Does he own his own business? Or, has he worked a great deal of overtime to achieve 6 figures? If not, tell him not to come to Dallas because he will take a huge pay cut if he does.

Yes, he owns his own business. Do you really think that Texas is that much worse economically than Arizona? Have you looked into this at all? If you do, you might be surprised just how good you have it.

I don't think GA's have salaries and benefits as low as plumbers in Texas or various other countries around the world.

Texas is now another country? I know it was at one point...but it's been a while.

I know a lot of working men that would love to have their incomes if they could only swap bank accounts.

I have a so-called "white collar" job - are you suggesting that I'm not a "working man"?

I was most sincere when I questioned how much was in President Hinckleys estate when he died. It must have been a huge sum. I really believe that and don't think anyone here can disprove that.

Nor can you actually prove that it was. Thus, you seem to be engaging in baseless speculation (again). BTW, it is the accuser (you) who has the burden of proof, not the defendant.

[gonzoman]

The coveted blue collar work jobs at the auto industry are hardly a comprehensive representation of blue collar wages across this nation, let alone the world! Those numbers have some validity but are inflated by the employer's reports in any way they can make them look bigger than they actually are.

Paul O

Those numbers are, indeed, inflated. As a matter of fact, the famous figure of $73/hour was arrived at by adding all pension and health benefits given to retired workers, plus salary and benefits paid to active workers, and then dividing the resulting figure by the number of active workers. Because the Big 3 all have more retired than active workers, the resulting wage figure is grossly skewed, particularly when compared to Toyota or Honda, who have few retirees in the US.

A line production worker at GM, Ford, or Chrysler makes the same hourly wage a worker at Toyota makes: $27/hour. Skilled trades make slightly more, but even they don't make more than $33/hour.

[John Larsen]

I don't believe that I've ever made that argument in my life.

I agree. I have good friends who are pastors and priests, for whom I have great respect.

I don't recall ever confusing them with Peter Popoff or Jim Bakker.

And if you can ever find where I've ever suggested that all, or most, or even many Christian clergy are somehow equivalent to corrupt television evangelists, I'll happily concede my error and apologize.

And, by the same reasoning, Indonesia, which is often described as the world's most populous Islamic country, isn't really a Muslim country at all, because a whopping 13.9% of Indonesians aren't Muslims -- a stunning 232 times as big a percentage as the percentage of paid Mormon "clergy." Pakistan, with nearly 4% non-Muslims, can't be described as an Islamic country, either. Nor can Iran, with its still relatively vast population of 2% non-Muslims -- nearly thirty-five times the percentage of paid Mormon "clergy." And let's not speak of Egypt, whose citizens, by some estimates, could be as much as 25% non-Muslim -- which is nearly 420 times as large as the percentage of LDS leaders who receive living stipends.

Nor, for that matter, will it do to say that the oceans are water, since seawater has an average salinity of 3.5% -- meaning that every kilogram (1000 grams) of seawater contains roughly thirty-five grams of salt. In order to make the scale clearer still, every ten kilograms (10,000 grams) of seawater contains approximately 350 grams of salt. Yet, by contrast, only six of every ten thousand LDS Church leaders receive any pay.

Thus, if the LDS Church does not have an unpaid clergy, the Pacific Ocean is not a body of water, and neither Egypt nor Iran nor Pakistan nor Indonesia is a Muslim country.

This is not only silly. It's madness.

I guess if I only cheat on my wife once every 3 years (less than 1 out of more than 1000 days), which is < 99.9% of the time, I am faithful?

It is not silly, it is binary. Either there is a paid clergy or there is not.

[Paul Osborne]

And, of course, I didn't say that you were doing it over here.

You do it in the Compound.

You are so correct, sir. I love to slander over in the compound especially when drinking Jack Daniels, but not over here. That wouldn't be appropriate. I know better.

I don't. And, as you say, you don't.

Yet you assume that the figure was in the multi-millions, below. On what basis? None:

It comes from personal inspiration, by what or by whom, though, is another question altogether. I feel it in my bones and know it's true. I just can't prove it and it seems no one here can prove otherwise. Therefore, since no one knows how much President Hinckley was worth there is lack of data to show that one cannot achieve wealth through the path of the apostleship. And, that is what this thread is about.

And, at the Compound, you rail against the leaders of the Church, often obscenely.

On what basis? As you yourself acknowledge, on the basis of nothing at all.

What relevance does that have with our discussion here? We are not in the compound. We are at MAD. This is a great place to be and to show mutual respect, the best we can.

Paul O

[USU78]

You are so correct, sir. I love to slander over in the compound especially when drinking Jack Daniels, but not over here. That wouldn't be appropriate. I know better.

It comes from personal inspiration, by what or by whom, though, is another question altogether. I feel it in my bones and know it's true. I just can't prove it and it seems no one here can prove otherwise. Therefore, since no one knows how much President Hinckley was worth there is lack of data to show that one cannot achieve wealth through the path of the apostleship. And, that is what this thread is about.

What relevance does that have with our discussion here? We are not in the compound. We are at MAD. This is a great place to be and to show mutual respect, the best we can.

Paul O

Paul, I've never known you to be so petty before.

What's going on?

Can I help.

[Daniel Peterson]

You are so correct, sir. I love to slander over in the compound especially when drinking Jack Daniels, but not over here. That wouldn't be appropriate. I know better.

Slander isn't appropriate anywhere. Especially not the drunken and obscene variety in which you've been indulging yourself.

Even Shades agrees with me on that.

It comes from personal inspiration, by what or by whom, though, is another question altogether. I feel it in my bones and know it's true. I just can't prove it and it seems no one here can prove otherwise. Therefore, since no one knows how much President Hinckley was worth there is lack of data to show that one cannot achieve wealth through the path of the apostleship. And, that is what this thread is about.

I can't prove that your family planned the assassination of President Kennedy there in Dallas, but you can't prove to me that they didn't.

I feel it in my bones, though. I know you're guilty.

The fact is that there is no evidence that the Brethren have grown rich off of the offerings of the widows, the orphans, and the poor of the Church. They live modestly. I've been in several of their homes, and those homes are nothing extraordinary. If they're salting away all of the ill-gotten wealth that you fantasize about, they're getting no benefits from it that are discernible to the non-Jack-Daniels-spiritual eye.

It is not silly, it is binary. Either there is a paid clergy or there is not.

Then there is not.

If you're going to insist on a simplistic either/or, the proposition that "Mormons have no paid clergy" is far less misleading and far more accurate than is the proposition that "Mormons have a paid clergy."

[Paul Osborne]

You did notice that this system is common among most colleges and universities, right?

What are you talking about, Bluebell? I'm referring to the children of General Authorities getting a free education as part of their salary package of benefits. That is a huge perk! It is worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not discussing the employees of the university. We are talking about General Authorities.

I wish my company would pay the tuition for my two daughters to attend college here in Dallas! I pay the tuition for both of them myself, in full. And I'm a blue collar working man!

Paul O

[Daniel Peterson]

For what it's worth, a photo of the lavish palace in which President Monson lives appears here:

http://www.moroni10.com/prophets_homes/Thomas_Monson.html

And photographs of the vast estates in which other presidents resided are available via links on the left hand side of the screen.

The average Latter-day Saint will be simply stunned to behold these monuments of splendor and unimaginable wealth.