What must I do to be saved?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Book of Mormon says,

[Doctor Steuss]

Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Logic teaches that this is a red herring.

How's that working out for you?

Book of Mormon says,

[Doctor Steuss]

What does this have to do with the point the good dr is making?

I'm not completely sure I was making a point (I tend to not be very lucid in the early hours). But, if I were making a point, I imagine DLClark's post had direct bearing on it because Israel was like a casserole, and sometimes onions make you cry. So this is why we are express images of not an onion, but a tomato. For this is the plan of heaven.

This is why everything written after Jude shouldn't be in the Bible, nor Jude, nor anything written after the compilation of the Bible, and by "Bible," I don't mean the Torah, or the Muratorian canon, or Origen's list of canonical books, or Eusebius Of Caesarea's "Bible," or the list of biblical books found in the Codex Claromontanus, or the "Bible" of Gregory Of Nazianzus, or the Athanasius canon, or the one that was approved by the Synod Of Laodicea, and definately not the one of Amphilochius of Iconium, or the Cheltenham "Bible," or the one approved by the Third Synod Of Carthage, and absolutely not the one of Cyril of Jerusalem (what did he know?). Any overlapping of these "Bibles" is inconsequential because we know that the Bible was only given ONCE. Because of this, we know that all of these can

[structurecop]

This is why everything written after Jude shouldn't be in the Bible, nor Jude, nor anything written after the compilation of the Bible, and by "Bible," I don't mean the Torah, or the Muratorian canon, or Origen's list of canonical books, or Eusebius Of Caesarea's "Bible," or the list of biblical books found in the Codex Claromontanus, or the "Bible" of Gregory Of Nazianzus, or the Athanasius canon, or the one that was approved by the Synod Of Laodicea, and definately not the one of Amphilochius of Iconium, or the Cheltenham "Bible," or the one approved by the Third Synod Of Carthage, and absolutely not the one of Cyril of Jerusalem (what did he know?). Any overlapping of these "Bibles" is inconsequential because we know that the Bible was only given ONCE. Because of this, we know that all of these can

[Doctor Steuss]

<Typical biblical literalist non-response/backpedaling>

Shhhh... Be vewy, vewy, quiet. I'm hunting fundamentalwists.

[structurecop]

Shhhh... Be vewy, vewy, quiet. I'm hunting fundamentalwists.

Whoops, didn't mean to scare away your game.

[Vance]

Still dodging the CFR I see. Do you even understand what you are being questioned on?

"Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

You are Non-responsive. Either provide a reference, retract your statement with an admission that you posted it ignorantly, or just leave!

I see that DL has run away from the CFR, and without an apology to boot.

[Zakuska]

Logic teaches that this is a red herring.

How's that working out for you?

If we're just tossing random things out, I reckon I might as well join in:

Peter Hayman, "Monotheism

[Vance]

Still dodging the CFR I see. Do you even understand what you are being questioned on?

"Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

You are Non-responsive. Either provide a reference, retract your statement with an admission that you posted it ignorantly, or just leave!

And still DLClark is avoiding the CFR.

[mrmendoza]

Sorry Dl. Sorry Hoops. If either one of you actually answered my questions I must have been distracted by all of the mumbo jumbo fillers that you put in there and I didn't understand the answers!

So lets start this way. I, a poor sinner come to you, an obvious good Christian and ask you, "What must I do to be saved?" You say.....? After I comply with whatever conditions you tell me I should, am I then saved? If so, then what? Is there anything I need to do? If so, why? In your opinion, what does "being saved" mean? Now, after a long period of time I come to find out that some strange cult makes more sense to me then the incomprehensible stuff you've been trying to teach me, and I embrace them, and leave you behind for what I truly believe is a better way. In your opinion, will I still be saved, if in the final judgement it turns out I was wrong?

Mike

[DLClark]

And still DLClark is avoiding the CFR.

Here read this information. I spent time researching the information. Please check it out.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158

G.A.T., pp. 127-129. We were spirit people before we came to earth. After coming to earth man can become a God if he is obedient. On pg 12 of the same work Hunter said that God the Father attaines His position of ecxaltation and Godhood by obedience to the great law od progression.

G.A.T, p. 51 Hunter said that Jesus became a God through obedience to the gospel.

Jesus was born of the Father as a natural birth, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44 by J.F. Smith.

Bruce R. McConkie made this statement in Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547 that Jesus was born by an imortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten. Sounds like God the Father had sex that produced Christ the Son.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158.

DLC

[Vance]

Here read this information. I spent time researching the information. Please check it out.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158

I notice that you didn't provide a direct quote but rather YOUR OWN WORDS. Sorry but that doesn't fulfill the CFR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND!!! Had you actually done your research, you might have found this;

The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: "But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed." B.H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, 294.

G.A.T., pp. 127-129. We were spirit people before we came to earth. After coming to earth man can become a God if he is obedient. On pg 12 of the same work Hunter said that God the Father attaines His position of ecxaltation and Godhood by obedience to the great law od progression.

Irrelevant!!! And again this doesn't address the CFR!!

G.A.T, p. 51 Hunter said that Jesus became a God through obedience to the gospel.

Irrelevant!!! And again this doesn't address the CFR!!

Jesus was born of the Father as a natural birth, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44 by J.F. Smith.

That statement is true! However it is irrelevant to the CFR as it doesn't say what you claimed Mormons teach. So again, you STILL haven't provide an official reference that says what you claimed.

Bruce R. McConkie made this statement in Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547 that Jesus was born by an imortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten. Sounds like God the Father had sex that produced Christ the Son.

Oh really? Is sexual intercourse required to produce a child? Again this doesn't fulfill the CFR!! Try again.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158.

Already addressed this one. See above.

You have failed to address the CFR for the statement "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

Where is the OFFICIAL declaration from the Church? Where is the scriptural reference?

STILL WAITING!!!!!!!!!!!

[Flyonthewall]

Here read this information. I spent time researching the information. Please check it out.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158

G.A.T., pp. 127-129. We were spirit people before we came to earth. After coming to earth man can become a God if he is obedient. On pg 12 of the same work Hunter said that God the Father attaines His position of ecxaltation and Godhood by obedience to the great law od progression.

G.A.T, p. 51 Hunter said that Jesus became a God through obedience to the gospel.

Jesus was born of the Father as a natural birth, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44 by J.F. Smith.

Bruce R. McConkie made this statement in Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547 that Jesus was born by an imortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten. Sounds like God the Father had sex that produced Christ the Son.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158.

DLC

I have read page 158 of the seer, and it says nothing about the Father having sex with Mary. What does "overshadow" mean? Pratt wrote that the personage of the Father begat Jesus...is this the reference to sex you allude to? The scriptures state that Jesus is the "only begotten" of the Father, does that also mean sex?

I believe you are attributing meanings to others that they themselves did not state. Even if you believe your own meanings, the Seer has bee repudiated as professing doctrine that is inaccurate. So you still have not shown where mormonism teaches that the Father had sex with Mary.

Here is the citation you are referring to:

158 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE.

...pure, and sublime attributes which are perfected in all their fulness in themselves. If none but Gods will be permitted

to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord

Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Hence, the Father saith concerning him, " Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." We are informed in

the first chapter of Luke, that Mary was chosen by the Father as a choice virgin, through whom He begat Jesus.

The angel said unto the Virgin Mary, " The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore, also,

that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." After the power of the Highest had overshadowed Mary, and she had by

that means conceived, she related the circumstance to her cousin Elizabeth in the following words : "He that is Mighty bath done to me great things;

and holy is His name

[Vance]

I cited the source for you, there is doubt in my mind that you have even read this, and are not just parroting something or someone else...

Now WHY would you think he is just parroting something or someone else?

It wouldn't have anything to do with past experience would it?

[Tanyan]

Mormonism teaches that a person is saved by grace after doing all that he can do. Have you done all that you can do in order to be saved by grace?

Book of Mormon says,

[DLClark]

I notice that you didn't provide a direct quote but rather YOUR OWN WORDS. Sorry but that doesn't fulfill the CFR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND!!! Had you actually done your research, you might have found this;

The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say: "But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed." B.H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, 294.

Irrelevant!!! And again this doesn't address the CFR!!

Irrelevant!!! And again this doesn't address the CFR!!

That statement is true! However it is irrelevant to the CFR as it doesn't say what you claimed Mormons teach. So again, you STILL haven't provide an official reference that says what you claimed.

Oh really? Is sexual intercourse required to produce a child? Again this doesn't fulfill the CFR!! Try again.

Already addressed this one. See above.

You have failed to address the CFR for the statement "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

Where is the OFFICIAL declaration from the Church? Where is the scriptural reference?

STILL WAITING!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is more proff that God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus. You shall know th truth and the true shall set you free.

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father." Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547. Sounds like god had sex with Mary to birth Jesus.

"The birth of Jesus was a NATURAL occurance unattended with any degree of mysticismm and the Father God was the LITERAL PARENT of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." Religious Truths Defended, p 44. Sounds like God the Father has sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

Joseph F. Smith said, "Christ was begotten of God. HE WAS NOT BORN WITHOUT THE AID OF A MAN, AND THAT MAN WAS GOD." Doctrine of Salvation Salt Lake City, 1959, vol.1 pg. 18.

Sounds like God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

There is much more that came evidence to the fact that Mormonism teaches that Jesus' birth was not a virgin birth but a natural birth. Sounds like Jesus was not God from all eternity past but was a man who became a God through obedience to the law of eternal progression.

DLC

[Flyonthewall]

Here is more proff that God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus. You shall know th truth and the true shall set you free.

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father." Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547. Sounds like god had sex with Mary to birth Jesus.

"The birth of Jesus was a NATURAL occurance unattended with any degree of mysticismm and the Father God was the LITERAL PARENT of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." Religious Truths Defended, p 44. Sounds like God the Father has sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

Joseph F. Smith said, "Christ was begotten of God. HE WAS NOT BORN WITHOUT THE AID OF A MAN, AND THAT MAN WAS GOD." Doctrine of Salvation Salt Lake City, 1959, vol.1 pg. 18.

Sounds like God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

It only sounds that way because of what is in your own mind.

There is much more that came evidence to the fact that Mormonism teaches that Jesus' birth was not a virgin birth but a natural birth. Sounds like Jesus was not God from all eternity past but was a man who became a God through obedience to the law of eternal progression.

I'm sure there many more accusations out there that draw their conclusions the same as you do. I don't believe you have anything original but are just recycling old arguments.

We teach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father, just like the scriptures say. No mortal man can claim to be the parent of Jesus. We teach nothing about the means of conception, only that it took place while Mary was "overshadowed". The birth of Jesus was natural, as there was no other way to give birth in those days. God the Father is the literal father of Jesus, and Mary, a virgin, is the mother of Jesus.

I can think of a way or two that a woman can become pregnant without having sex. If I can think of a couple of ways, then I am sure that God the Father can think of many more. We teach that the Father provided the genetic material required to join with Mary's to produce a baby. What method was used is not known.

Now you can continue to "quote mine" for sound bites that you think support your view, but you will be wrong. There is no official teaching of the church that supports your assertion.

[Vance]

Here is more proff that God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

Well, now that you are providing "proff" that it occurred are YOU the one that is teaching it?

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father." Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547. Sounds like god had sex with Mary to birth Jesus.

Does it really? So is your mind in the gutter?

Answer me this. I have a friend that several years ago, when he was a teenage, had an accident and was paralyzed from the neck down. He has since married and had children. Does that sound like he had sex to you? Do you think his children were conceived in an unnatural manner?

Also did you know tha "Mormon Doctrine" is NOT a source for OFFICIAL LDS DOCTRINE/TEACHINGS?

"The birth of Jesus was a NATURAL occurance unattended with any degree of mysticismm and the Father God was the LITERAL PARENT of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." Religious Truths Defended, p 44. Sounds like God the Father has sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

Is sexual intercourse REQUIRED for children to be begotten? NO!!

Also did you know tha "Religious Truths Defended" is NOT a source for OFFICIAL LDS DOCTRINE/TEACHINGS?

Joseph F. Smith said, "Christ was begotten of God. HE WAS NOT BORN WITHOUT THE AID OF A MAN, AND THAT MAN WAS GOD." Doctrine of Salvation Salt Lake City, 1959, vol.1 pg. 18.

Sounds like God the Father had sex with Mary and birthed Jesus.

Is sexual intercourse REQUIRED for a "man" to aid in the conception of a children? NO!! Just ask a fertility Doctor.

Also did you know tha "Doctrine of Salvation" is NOT a source for OFFICIAL LDS DOCTRINE/TEACHINGS?

There is much more that came evidence to the fact that Mormonism teaches that Jesus' birth was not a virgin birth but a natural birth.

And this clearly exposes your IGNORANCE about Mormon doctrine.

From OFFICIAL LDS CANON the Book of Mormon no less

1 Ne. 11:18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

[Vance]

So here we are, several days after the initial CFR, and DLClark is STILL is NON-RESPONSIVE!!!!!

We are STILL waiting for an OFFICIAL LDS source for your claim that "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So here we are, several days after the initial CFR, and DLClark is STILL is NON-RESPONSIVE!!!!!

We are STILL waiting for an OFFICIAL LDS source for your claim that "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

You will be waiting for a long time.

[Vance]

You will be waiting for a long time.

Now why would you say such a thing?

Just because DLC wouldn't even admit that he was plagiarizing even after being caught red handed; you don't think he would admit that his assertion was unfounded?

Why do you have to be that way?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Now why would you say such a thing?

Just because DLC wouldn't even admit that he was plagiarizing even after being caught red handed; you don't think he would admit that his assertion was unfounded?

Why do you have to be that way?

Well the question is "why do I like to rip peoples hearts from thier chests?" Once you have answered that one we can move onto the next.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On another thread I possed the question that went something like this, I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restored Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restored Gospel?

Mike

Thus the paradox that is

[DLClark]

So here we are, several days after the initial CFR, and DLClark is STILL is NON-RESPONSIVE!!!!!

We are STILL waiting for an OFFICIAL LDS source for your claim that "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."

Here read this information. I spent time researching the information. Please check it out.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158

G.A.T., pp. 127-129. We were spirit people before we came to earth. After coming to earth man can become a God if he is obedient. On pg 12 of the same work Hunter said that God the Father attaines His position of ecxaltation and Godhood by obedience to the great law od progression.

G.A.T, p. 51 Hunter said that Jesus became a God through obedience to the gospel.

Jesus was born of the Father as a natural birth, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44 by J.F. Smith.

Bruce R. McConkie made this statement in Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547 that Jesus was born by an imortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten. Sounds like God the Father had sex that produced Christ the Son.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158.

"Jesus, our eleder brother (Jesus was never our brother. We bcome children of God through receiving Christ as our salvior John 1:12.) was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Mow remember from this time forth and forever, that Jesus Christ was not bgotten by the Holy Ghost (J.ofD., Vol. 1,pp.50-51).

Jesus was spirit child. "the First Spirit Child bron to the Father in Pre-existence" was Jesus Christ (G.T.A., pg. 120.

"But Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband," Brgham Young in Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866.

Sounds like Mary had another husband who is God the Father and mentioned belwo. Mormons teach that Mary had more than one husband, Joseph and God the Father. How can this be.

Who was Mary's other husband? "The birth of the Savior was a Natural occurance unattained with any degrtee of mysticism and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." Religious Truths Defined, p. 44. Sounds like God has sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

DLC

[Vance]

Here read this information. I spent time researching the information. Please check it out.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158

G.A.T., pp. 127-129. We were spirit people before we came to earth. After coming to earth man can become a God if he is obedient. On pg 12 of the same work Hunter said that God the Father attaines His position of ecxaltation and Godhood by obedience to the great law od progression.

G.A.T, p. 51 Hunter said that Jesus became a God through obedience to the gospel.

Jesus was born of the Father as a natural birth, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44 by J.F. Smith.

Bruce R. McConkie made this statement in Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-547 that Jesus was born by an imortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten. Sounds like God the Father had sex that produced Christ the Son.

Here you go. The Virgin Mary and God the Father had sex that produce the Son Jesus Christ.

Orson Pratt in "The Seer," pg 158.

"Jesus, our eleder brother (Jesus was never our brother. We bcome children of God through receiving Christ as our salvior John 1:12.) was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Mow remember from this time forth and forever, that Jesus Christ was not bgotten by the Holy Ghost (J.ofD., Vol. 1,pp.50-51).

Jesus was spirit child. "the First Spirit Child bron to the Father in Pre-existence" was Jesus Christ (G.T.A., pg. 120.

"But Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband," Brgham Young in Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866.

Sounds like Mary had another husband who is God the Father and mentioned belwo. Mormons teach that Mary had more than one husband, Joseph and God the Father. How can this be.

Who was Mary's other husband? "The birth of the Savior was a Natural occurance unattained with any degrtee of mysticism and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." Religious Truths Defined, p. 44. Sounds like God has sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

DLC

So here we are, several days after the initial CFR, and DLClark STILL is NON-RESPONSIVE!!!!!

We are STILL waiting for an OFFICIAL LDS source for your claim that "Momons teach, was a spirit being who became a man through God the Father having sex with Mary."