Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I think you (all) need consider one other facet of the salvation experience. You asked how you would ever know? One part of that is that you will remain loyal to essential christian doctrine. Doctrine is, after all, one way that God communicates with us. When you abandon essential christian doctrine, as lds doctrine does, you no longer have that assurance. ANd, we believe that essential doctrine has been revealed to us by revelation.
ERMD Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine.Works!Blasphemy!Corrupt!
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Works!Blasphemy!Corrupt!You misunderstand. Of course, since lds don't really want to understand, they're just waiting for the next opportunity to scream bigot, mormophobe, hater, etc., etc., etc., etc.But I'll explain anyway. The question I am answering is: "how will I know if I am still saved."
DLClark Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Sinners, confronted with their need of salvation, frequently stumble over the simplicity of the salvation which God offers. Since Satan cannot take away anything from the conditions of salvation or the plan of salvation - for God has already reduced it to an irreducible minimum - if Satan is to confound the minds of the sinners he must do so by addition, not subtraction. If conditions were placed by God to salvation, Satan might take away those conditions so that men would not be saved. But since there are no conditions, and salvation is a simple fact to be believed, Satan's method of deceiving men has been to add to the simplicity of the gospel. That is why some will teach that salvation is by faith and good works; or, salvation is by faith and baptism; or, salvation is by faith plus church membership; or, salvation is by faith plus repentance. These are all attempts to darken the mind of the man who needs to be saved concerning the central issue and the basic plan of salvation. There is only one word that represents all a sinner can do and must do to be saved and that word is believe. Repentance is not the means by which we acquire eternal life. Luke
ERMD Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 You misunderstand. Of course, since lds don't really want to understand, they're just waiting for the next opportunity to scream bigot, mormophobe, hater, etc., etc., etc., etc.But I'll explain anyway. The question I am answering is: "how will I know if I am still saved."I understand quite well. You however, don't recognize sarcasm when you see it.Your answer requires some effort on the part of the one receiving salvation, which means works of some type, which means works are somehow necessary for salvation.I merely filled in the frequently encountered responses to such a notion.I have re-read the post, and I fail to find the terms "bigot, mormophobe, hater, etc., etc., etc., etc." Did I miss something?
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I understand quite well. You however, don't recognize sarcasm when you see it.Your answer requires some effort on the part of the one receiving salvation, which means works of some type, which means works are somehow necessary for salvation.I merely filled in the frequently encountered responses to such a notion.I have re-read the post, and I fail to find the terms "bigot, mormophobe, hater, etc., etc., etc., etc." Did I miss something?Works are not required for salvation. For one to be assured of one's salvation, one component to accomplish that is to be loyal to essential christian doctrine. Without that, one will be buoyed and swayed by all kinds of nonsensical doctrine - some which is lds doctrine.Another component of assurance is works - I know of no one who would deny that.
Zakuska Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Sinners, confronted with their need of salvation, frequently stumble over the simplicity of the salvation which God offers. Since Satan cannot take away anything from the conditions of salvation or the plan of salvation - for God has already reduced it to an irreducible minimum - if Satan is to confound the minds of the sinners he must do so by addition, not subtraction. If conditions were placed by God to salvation, Satan might take away those conditions so that men would not be saved. But since there are no conditions, and salvation is a simple fact to be believed, Satan's method of deceiving men has been to add to the simplicity of the gospel. That is why some will teach that salvation is by faith and good works; or, salvation is by faith and baptism; or, salvation is by faith plus church membership; or, salvation is by faith plus repentance. These are all attempts to darken the mind of the man who needs to be saved concerning the central issue and the basic plan of salvation. There is only one word that represents all a sinner can do and must do to be saved and that word is believe. Repentance is not the means by which we acquire eternal life. Luke
ERMD Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Works are not required for salvation. For one to be assured of one's salvation, one component to accomplish that is to be loyal to essential christian doctrine. Without that, one will be buoyed and swayed by all kinds of nonsensical doctrine - some which is lds doctrine.Another component of assurance is works - I know of no one who would deny that.The question was, "What must I do to be saved?"Your answer: "Maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine."Now you're backpedaling. It's unbecoming.LDS doctrine is "nonsensical"? Sounds mormophobic to me, if not insulting. So much for the higher road you seem to see yourself taking.1 Cor 29 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 The question was, "What must I do to be saved?"Your answer: "Maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine."From the OPSo, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?
Zakuska Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 The question was, "What must I do to be saved?"Your answer: "Maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine."Now you're backpedaling. It's unbecoming.LDS doctrine is "nonsensical"? Sounds mormophobic to me, if not insulting. So much for the higher road you seem to see yourself taking.1 Cor 29 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man
ERMD Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 From the OPSo, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?Compound question, to which you responded with one answer.
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Good verse!So hoops mans wisdom speaks to his head and the ears, Gods wisdom speaks to the soul and the heart.But I am a member of God's catholic church. Which, as you know, is the subject of this particular discourse from Paul. So I must have "felt" something.
Zakuska Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 But I am a member of God's catholic church. Which, as you know, is the subject of this particular discourse from Paul. So I must have "felt" something.Test the spirits man. Saul didn't and it got him in trouble.
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Compound question, to which you responded with one answer.I don't know what a compound question is. You wrote that I answered the question, then backtracked. I showed you the question that I answered. He asked it, I'm assuming he wanted an answer.I am contemplating no back tracking so far.
ERMD Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 But I am a member of God's catholic church. Which, as you know, is the subject of this particular discourse from Paul. So I must have "felt" something.Careful. "Feelings" will mislead you. Could be the devil, you know.
Hoops22 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Careful. "Feelings" will mislead you. Could be the devil, you know.True. But I thought I would use a term that you would like
Doctor Steuss Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 <snip>DLCHi DLC,In how many more threads do you plan on doing a
ERMD Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I don't know what a compound question is. You wrote that I answered the question, then backtracked. I showed you the question that I answered. He asked it, I'm assuming he wanted an answer.I am contemplating no back tracking so far.A compound question is one which asks more than one thing. When one provides one answer to a compound question, the implication is that the one answer is for both questions.
ERMD Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 True. But I thought I would use a term that you would likeSorry, that's nonsensical.(I'm tiring of the banter.)
mrmendoza Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 Those inconsistencies are in your mind.Maybe so, but then that's why I said I'm trying to clarify them. But I do think that it is inconsistent for you to be always acting like we don't like the Bible, when we take it more literally then most of you do! But even if we actualy were to say thay we don't believe in large parts of the Bible and only used the parts that we wanted, would that be any worse then you guys always saying "Sola Scriptura" but then turn around and explain away over half of what it says, by saying that,"that part doesn't apply to us"! I call that inconsistent! That is incorrect. I do not consider mormonism to be consistent with Christian theology. I have no idea about you.So theology saves us? While it's true that Mormonism is not consistent with traditional, orthodox, Christion theology. So what! Most theology is just stuff that a lot of Greek influenced Philosophers made up to try to make Christianity more palatable to the more Greek educated elete. Talk about adding to and/or subtracting from! The definition of the Trinity comes to mind! However, your theology now is corrupt.Or maybe yours has always been!It is not absurd. It is accurate. You believe in the historical Jesus, not the One True GodAre you saying that Jesus is not historical? But aside from that, this should give you an idea of what we believe about Him.Mosiah 3:5-17 5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. 6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. 9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him. 10 And he shall arise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men. 11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned. 12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. ... 17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be ano other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. contradictory theology is not an expansion of what you knew before, it is a contradiction.Contradicting your theology is not just expansive, it's downright uplifting!If you were saved then, you are now.Well I was going to congradulate you for your honesty here, as opposed to Dls coping out by just saying that he didn't believe that I was ever saved in the first place, but I see by your other post that you decided to take the low road with him. I guess like clings to like!Mike
mrmendoza Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 I think you (all) need consider one other facet of the salvation experience. You asked how you would ever know? One part of that is that you will remain loyal to essential christian doctrine. Doctrine is, after all, one way that God communicates with us. When you abandon essential christian doctrine, as lds doctrine does, you no longer have that assurance. The problem here is that you're confusing traditional, orthordox, doctrine with esential doctirne!ANd, we believe that essential doctrine has been revealed to us by revelation.So, the creeds of the third , forth and fith century are revelations! Why have they not been cannonized? It would seem that you put equal or greater weight on them then you do the Bible! And then there's Luthor, and Calvins tulip doctrine! I know that you are going to claim innocence about the creeds (You have in the past!) But whether you know or accept it or not, that's where you got most of your interpetations and theology from!Mike
Hoops22 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 The problem here is that you're confusing traditional, orthordox, doctrine with esential doctirne!Fine. Then what is essential christian doctrine?So, the creeds of the third , forth and fith century are revelations! Why have they not been cannonized? It would seem that you put equal or greater weight on them then you do the Bible!It would seem so because that is what lds require. Nevertheless, if the creeds, as I maintain they are, are a shorthand of what is contained in the bible, why should they be cannonized? And then there's Luthor, and Calvins tulip doctrine! I know that you are going to claim innocence about the creeds (You have in the past!) But whether you know or accept it or not, that's where you got most of your interpetations and theology from!How could you possibly know that? I love it how lds castigate every one for telling them what you believe, yet find free reign to do the same to others. Priceless. And revealing.I'll be interested in your answer to the above.
mrmendoza Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 The call to repentance is broader than the call to eternal life. It is rather a call to harmony between the creature and His Creator, a call to fellowship between sinful men and women and a forgiving God. If we keep this fact firmly in mind, we will never make the mistake of thinking that repentance is a condition for eternal life.DLCI'm sorry, I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about here! You come up with more mumbo jumbo then anybody I've seen on this board! I could try to come up with something meaningful to say, but what would be the point? You're just throwing your line out there and hopeing someone will get hooked! I guess it works too, because we keep getting reeled in trying to reason with you! Mike
mrmendoza Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 Fine. Then what is essential christian doctrine?THE ARTICLES OF FAITHOF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535
Hoops22 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Doctrine, by it's mere existence, can and should and will seperate truth from error. What you have given us is not doctrine, but platitudes.Because if, as you guys say "the bible is the only word of God, then by using the traditional creeds of Christianity, you are in effect "adding to" the words of the Bible! Only your not honest enough to admit to that!No, not in effect. Not in any way at all. That is an lds spin that is at best illogical and at worst a lie. The creeds are an economical way to express Biblical Truth. They in no way add to Biblical Truth nor detract from it.Yeah, it does feel pretty good, I guess that's why you guys do it so much!I wouldn't know.
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