Chapel Mormons

[ERMD]

Point given-Point taken. It is true, my home teacher confirmed it Sunday night. (I hadn't heard either, as I'm sure millions of member haven't either)

It has been discussed at length here. I can't remember who it is, but a member of this board in an immigration attorney who offered some very interesting insights.

[wenglund]

Perhaps the church should focus on "informing" its members then because the exmormon community is singing a different song then is heard here on this forum, so if it is because they were just "uninformed", then the church could help the sheep before they are lost.

The Church does an excellent job of informing its members on things the Church deems pertinent to the intents and purpose of the gospel of Christ. If the "exmormon community" is supposedly "singing a different song", it is likely because they aren't on the same music page as the Church regarding what is pertinent to salvation and exaltation. Simple as that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

I reject both terms, chapel mormon and internet mormon. There are mormons who want to learn and expand their understanding of the things around them. There are those that don't, who only seem to be interested in what they can glean on Sundays in classes. <snip>

Its a people thing, not an LDS thing.

I disagree.

There is a common misconception that the only difference between a Chapel Mormon and an Internet Mormon is the degree to which they study and think. Meaning, that all Chapel Mormons would be Internet Mormons if they just did a little more studying and thinking.

This is not the case.

A general example would be all the "Chapel Mormons" who have libraries full of Church books (which they read and study). I've known many, many people like this (and am related to a few). They study the scriptures and words of the prophets more than anyone I know. Yet, they reject many if not all of the foundational theories of Internet Mormonism (LGT and two Cumorahs for BoM, limited flood for Noah, pre-Adamites and evolutionary creation, etc.)

And specifically, it should be pointed out that the gold standards for Chapel Mormons are Elder McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith and President Benson. These men were many things, but no one will say they were lacking in knowledge about the gospel or Church history.

Also, witness the success (to whatever degree) of Rodney Meldrum and the FIRM Foundation. Say what you will, but to follow his program takes some degree of time and effort, and someone who follows his line of thinking would most certainly be identified as a Chapel Mormon.

No, the fundamental difference between Chapel Mormons and Internet Mormons isn't the amount of time and effort they spend studying the gospel or Church history. It's the basic approach they take regarding the words of the scriptures, prophets, and Church leaders in comparison with the words of scholars, scientists and other more conventional purveyors of knowledge.

Internet Mormons ignorantly assume that Chapel Mormons would be just like them if only they knew. The sad truth is that many Chapel Mormons know about Internet Mormons, and feel sorry for them. And those that don't know about them may express pity or shock when exposed to Internet Mormon theories.

MMM for example was a few people who got out of control; it had nothing to do with the church.

You should make that into a bumper sticker.

[Scott Lloyd]

I feel like you have a very low opinion of exmormons. Might I classify you as anti-exmormon?

Actually, "ex-Mormon community" is an eminently inaccurate term for what you are apparently endeavoring to convey. Many (I dare say most) people who abandon their faith in the restored gospel do so without turning on the Church. Probably a more apt term might be "apostate and anti-Mormon community," though you may be one of those who sustains the false belief that there is no such thing as an anti-Mormon.

[Scott Lloyd]

You should make that into a bumper sticker.

Making a bumper sticker out of any aspect of the massacre would be in notoriously bad taste. But what Deborah said is not wrong.

[ERayR]

Perhaps the church should focus on "informing" its members then because the exmormon community is singing a different song then is heard here on this forum, so if it is because they were just "uninformed", then the church could help the sheep before they are lost.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[Calm]

I wasn't aware of this, and perhaps the members aren't likely to be told soon by our Church leader that people who are essentially criminals and Felon's are serving Missions and Temple workers. But now I'm informed. I discussed this with my Home Teacher Sunday.

Off topic, but illegal immigration is not a criminal offense and definitely not a felonius one. It is breaking the law, but IIRC it's defined as the same category of offense as speeding is (a civil offense, though I have no clue about how much more serious it is considered). One of the laywers here can clarify. If you want to find more details yourself, a search on the poster "Confidenital Informant" and "immigration" should provide the info, he is the immigration lawyer referred to above.

[ERayR]

Informed is a good word, Redifined, I was reading in here somewhere someone was telling posters that our Prophet condons what one called "Illegal Aliens, the other undocumented immigrants, to serve Missions and others to Work in the Temples as Ordinance Workers who came here Illegally, have lived here by obtaining fraudulent Identification and that our Prophet looks the other way and instructs our Church leaders to look away and not to get involved in Immigration enforcement. HUH? I tried to find the thread and paste it here but I couldn't find it. I wasn't aware of this, and perhaps the members aren't likely to be told soon by our Church leader that people who are essentially criminals and Felon's are serving Missions and Temple workers. But now I'm informed. I discussed this with my Home Teacher Sunday.

If you want to discuss this again start a new thread. You are misinformed, illegal status is not a felony. It is a misdeamenor, kind of like speeding or running a red light.

[Redefined]

No, I just hate those who whine about how they were never spoon fed the information that they 'never got' at Church. You can call me an anti-whiney exmormon if you like.

I think the church has a certain amount of accountability to inform its members. For instance, I don't think someone raised in the church should have to find out "independently" that Joseph Smith had 33 wives. This can cause much confusion. . . We might have a lot of . . . "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjerurs"-Joseph Smith (History of The Church 6:410-411) Maybe Joseph Smith was "uninformed".

[Redefined]

Actually, "ex-Mormon community" is an eminently inaccurate term for what you are apparently endeavoring to convey. Many (I dare say most) people who abandon their faith in the restored gospel do so without turning on the Church. Probably a more apt term might be "apostate and anti-Mormon community," though you may be one of those who sustains the false belief that there is no such thing as an anti-Mormon.

I think there is two seperate communities, in your mind they are the same though.

[Jason]

Being exmormon doesn't make someone automatically inclined to lie about his/her experiences.

Doesn't it?

[Vindicator]

If you want to discuss this again start a new thread. You are misinformed, illegal status is not a felony. It is a misdeamenor, kind of like speeding or running a red light.

My sincerest apologies, I was under the impression that we were talking about "Informed or MisInformed" members of the LDS church, not about what subject it applied to.

[Redefined]

Doesn't it?

It is one of those things that seems to only be understood when oneself becomes exmormon. So when you become exmormon, shoot me a line, and let me know how you feel.

[Vindicator]

Off topic, but illegal immigration is not a criminal offense and definitely not a felonius one. It is breaking the law, but IIRC it's defined as the same category of offense as speeding is (a civil offense, though I have no clue about how much more serious it is considered). One of the laywers here can clarify. If you want to find more details yourself, a search on the poster "Confidenital Informant" and "immigration" should provide the info, he is the immigration lawyer referred to above.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html Now your neither a Chapel or Internet Mormon, just an informed one!

[Jeff K.]

Ex Mormons have chosen not to believe, regardless of how much information is presented. Some ex Mormons may be informed, many are not. Having spoken with a fair share, it isn't knowledge that makes a Mormon leave, it is their lack of testimony which can include an umbrella of excuses. The "why wasn't I told" crowd really doesn't have much to stand on since there is always something you "were not told", or something that "church did not inform you of". It is somewhat ridiculous as an excuse. Do we reject God because he doesn't inform us of everything immediately? Of course not, then why His church?

I have a great deal more respect for former members who simply admit to the fact they stopped believing, in some cases no longer wanted to believe, and in more than a few, because they were angry with someone. I understand that is human nature, and I appreciate the honesty involved. But saying you are uninformed is a shallow excuse for a life changing decision.

As to the LDS community. What I find amazing is how well Mormons are informed about their church versus other churches. You go to most baptist functions, and even Catholic, there is very little to do with the history of those churches and what came about. Almost nothing really, as a convert to the LDS faith, I know this from personal experience. As an individual who deals often with the interfaith councils and groups I am also well aware of class structures.

Generally when I hear people say "Chapel Mormon" vs "Internet Mormon" I tend to see it as a rather superficial judgement by those with an axe to grind or a desire to marginalize those they view as being uninformed from their standpoint. These self same people would have rejected the God of Abraham for not informing them sufficiently. Hence they should be left to their own devices or called to repentance. Knowledge is not a saving grace, nor does it make you a better person.

[tsubotsubo]

I just want to add here, I don't think we can attempt to generalize like this when it comes to exmormons.

Yes, I'm sure most of us know of people who have left the church, and become hostile towards it. We all know people who've left, but are still friendly towards the church. We all know people who've left because they disagree with the ages of the women that Joseph Smith chose to marry. We all know people who've left the church because they've been offended. We all know people who've left the church because they're horrified by the sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. We all know people who've left the church because they want to sin.

Every single exmormon is different, yet we have people here trying to generalize a lot. They don't ALL lie about things to justify themselves. Yes, some do, but a lot don't. A lot of people who left the church could not care less about the history. Some people who left the church, left because the church didn't hide its history well enough!

Yes, a few ex-mormons are very nasty to all of us, but most of them are fine, and left for valid reasons.

[cinepro]

Making a bumper sticker out of any aspect of the massacre would be in notoriously bad taste. But what Deborah said is not wrong.

You don't think it's overstating the case to say the Church had nothing to do with it?

[Calm]

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html Now your neither a Chapel or Internet Mormon, just an informed one!

I prefer to take the word of lawyers in interpreting the law that I know than a website whose legal expertise I have no clue about...

Violation of laws, whether local or federal is not automatically defined as "criminal" as is obvious in the case of speeding.

The statue itself does not specify from what I could see that it is a federal crime even if fines and imprisonment may be imposed (the same can happen for speeding after all).

[tsubotsubo]

You don't think it's overstating the case to say the Church had nothing to do with it?

You're both correct (I think), depending on what definition of 'the church' you're using.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think the church has a certain amount of accountability to inform its members.

Yeah the church does, which is why they have talked about them.

For instance the church publishes articles about the MMM and they are "hiding it".

Now some times the church might not publish things every other year but I think they even have talked in tha past about JS 33 wives.

[Redefined]

I prefer to take the word of lawyers in interpreting the law that I know than a website whose legal expertise I have no clue about...

Violation of laws, whether local or federal is not automatically defined as "criminal" as is obvious in the case of speeding.

I guess even the Mormons are skeptical of FAIR articles.

[Vindicator]

I prefer to take the word of lawyers in interpreting the law that I know than a website whose legal expertise I have no clue about...

Yes, I can't help but agree. There seems to be a deluge of "Personalization" and "Interpetation" in here in the few days I've been reading and why not take the word of a friend rather than 2000 Internet sites that, show, discribe, explain, define and show the exact Rule of the LAW! Now, this would be a text book definition of "Going off Topic" . You've been shown the facts.. It's time to stay on topic as I am. Thank you!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You don't think it's overstating the case to say the Church had nothing to do with it?

IF you are impling guilt by association. Meaning since the people who did it were members of the church then yes the church is guilty, but last time I checked that was a logical fallacy.

The cannot be reasonably blamed for the MMM.

[Calm]

I guess even the Mormons are skeptical of FAIR articles.

I have no clue about what point you are trying to make here.

But you are right that I don't automatically assume that FAIR gets everything spot on.

[Redefined]

I have no clue about what point you are trying to make here.

But you are right that I don't automatically assume that FAIR gets everything spot on.

Federation for American Immigration Reform. . . FAIR.

The article vindicator linked to. . . . that had to be noticed to understand the joke. I assumed you had noticed.