Jump to content

Celestial Kingdom


thews

Recommended Posts

I read about Emanuel Swedenborg's book (written in 1784) recently where he wrote about the Celestial kingdom that's mosre than just somewhat similar than the version Joseph Smith wrote about. What is your opinion regarding Swedenborg? Was he guided by God?

http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon/plagiarism.html

Emanuel Swedenborg

In 1784 a man by the name of Emanuel Swedenborg wrote about his visions of the afterlife. His teachings were remarkably similar to what Joseph Smith later claimed to receive as revelation. For example, Swedenborg taught: "There are three heavens," described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars." This directly parallels Joseph's vision on the degrees of glory as recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 76.

By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Joseph told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that:

"Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished." (Statement in 1839 by Joseph Smith to Edward Hunter, a Swedenborgian convert who later became the presiding bishop of the Church)

While Joseph clearly did not base all his theology on Swedenborg (there are several important differences), there are similarities to what Swedenborg wrote.

Link to comment

I think they both read 1 Corinthians 15.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Link to comment

I read about Emanuel Swedenborg's book (written in 1784) recently where he wrote about the Celestial kingdom that's mosre than just somewhat similar than the version Joseph Smith wrote about. What is your opinion regarding Swedenborg? Was he guided by God?

http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon/plagiarism.html

I don't know, does it matter if he was ore wasn't?Emanuel didn't claim to be a prophet did he?

Link to comment

I think they both read 1 Corinthians 15.

Well, ok that's a start, but it goes much deeper than just that...

http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon/plagiarism.html

Emanuel Swedenborg vs.Joseph Smith

(Heaven and Hell, chapter 5)

There are three heavens: the celestial, the spiritual, and the natural. Those of a lower heaven are unable to see those in a higher heaven. Furthermore, the celestial heaven has three divisions.

(Doctrine and Covenants, 76, 131:1)

There are three heavens: the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms. Those of a lower heaven are unable to see those in a higher heaven. Furthermore, the celestial kingdom has three divisions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Conjugial Love, 20-21, 54(5), 155)

Swedenborg witnessed a marriage ceremony in heaven, in which the husband wore priesthood robes like those of Aaron while the wife was arrayed as a queen. Also, marriage between man and woman is necessary to inherit the highest heaven.

(Doctrine and Covenants, 131:2)

LDS temple marriages are believed to carry over to heaven, and involve clothing similar to what Swedenborg described. Also, marriage between man and woman is necessary to inherit the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Heaven and Hell, 421-422)

After dying, people enter a world of spirits that is nearly identical to this one. Afterward, they inherit a degree of glory based on how they lived while incarnate.

(Alma 12:24, 34:32-34, 40:21)

After dying, people go to the spirit world, which exists here on this world. Afterward, they inherit a degree of glory based on how they lived on the earth as well as in the spirit world.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Heaven and Hell, 27, 35)

Societies of angels exist whose primary function is to communicate between the kingdoms of heaven.

Doctrine and Covenants, 76:86-88)

Angels are appointed to minister to lower kingdoms of heaven.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Emanuel Swedenborg received his divine calling on April 6, 1744. One year later on April 6, 1745 the Lord appeared to him again.

(Doctrine and Covenants, 20:1)

The LDS church was established on April 6, 1830. It also teaches that Jesus was born on April 6.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Last Judgement, 33-39; True Christian Religion, 647)

The church established by Christ died spiritually due to apostasy and false doctrines. The Lord's church would be re-established and again act as a link with heaven.

(Joseph Smith History, 1:16)

The church established by Christ died spiritually due to apostasy and false doctrines. The Lord's church was restored through Joseph Smith.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(True Christian Religion, 340-342, Heaven and Hell, 427)

One of the great errors of Christianity is justification by faith alone. People will be judged for their actions as well.

(Alma 11:34-37)

Faith is meaningless without works. People will be judged for their actions as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Arcana Coelestia, vol. 1)

The creation and Garden of Eden stories are allegories of our spiritual progress.

The LDS counterpart to this idea is found in the temple endowment.

Link to comment

I read about Emanuel Swedenborg's book (written in 1784) recently where he wrote about the Celestial kingdom that's mosre than just somewhat similar than the version Joseph Smith wrote about. What is your opinion regarding Swedenborg? Was he guided by God?

http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon/plagiarism.html

Are you really impressed that Mr. Swedenborg may have had the same views of the kingdoms of God by way of heavenly guidance, as did Joseph Smith? Or, are you trying-- in a slick, backhanded way---couched in and covered by feigned curiosity about what LDS think of Mr. Swedenborg, to suggest that Joseph Smith's received revelations were nothing more than plagiarisms from Mr. Swedenborg's writings?

Link to comment

Are you really impressed that Mr. Swedenborg may have had the same views of the kingdoms of God by way of heavenly guidance, as did Joseph Smith? Or, are you trying-- in a slick, backhanded way---couched in and covered by feigned curiosity about what LDS think of Mr. Swedenborg, to suggest that Joseph Smith's received revelations were nothing more than plagiarisms from Mr. Swedenborg's writings?

I've got dibs on the latter!

Link to comment

Are you really impressed that Mr. Swedenborg may have had the same views of the kingdoms of God by way of heavenly guidance, as did Joseph Smith?

Impressed? No... it just seems that what Jospeh Smith restored was too similar to Swedenborg's book to be coincidence.

Or, are you trying-- in a slick, backhanded way---couched in and covered by feigned curiosity about what LDS think of Mr. Swedenborg, to suggest that Joseph Smith's received revelations were nothing more than plagiarisms from Mr. Swedenborg's writings?

Well that seems to paint me in a pretty bad light doesn't it? backhanded? I just asked a question based on what I read. Again, it seems to be too much of a coincidence to not have been inspired in some way.

Link to comment

Impressed? No... it just seems that what Jospeh Smith restored was too similar to Swedenborg's book to be coincidence.

Well that seems to paint me in a pretty bad light doesn't it? backhanded? I just asked a question based on what I read. Again, it seems to be too much of a coincidence to not have been inspired in some way.

The apocyrpha seems like a much more likely place for Joseph Smith to have plagerized the idea of 3 heavens from.

Its a much easier connection to prove too.

Link to comment

The apocyrpha seems like a much more likely place for Joseph Smith to have plagerized the idea of 3 heavens from.

Its a much easier connection to prove too.

How could Smith plagiarize doctrine that had already been among men since Adam? This is like saying he stole polygamy from Abraham.

Link to comment

How could Smith plagiarize doctrine that had already been among men since Adam? This is like saying he stole polygamy from Abraham.

See above similarities to what Swedenborg wrote about. There too many things IMO to be a coincidence. JMHO.

Link to comment

How could Smith plagiarize doctrine that had already been among men since Adam? This is like saying he stole polygamy from Abraham.

Well... You're not too far from the truth... young Jedi.

Did he not Inquire of the Lord about Polygamy after reading in the Bible about how Abraham Isaac Jacob King David and Solomon where Polygamists, he wondered how they where justified in taking more than one Wife and then he received the Revelation.

According to Joseph Smith himself that is how he received the Revelation of the 3 heavens.

Doctrine and Covenants 76

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. HC 1: 245

Link to comment
I think they both read 1 Corinthians 15.

They both could have read the early Christian fathers too.

How could Smith plagiarize doctrine that had already been among men since Adam? This is like saying he stole polygamy from Abraham.
Well... You're not too far from the truth... young Jedi.

Did he not Inquire of the Lord about Polygamy after reading in the Bible about how Abraham Isaac Jacob King David and Solomon where Polygamists, he wondered how they where justified in taking more than one Wife and then he received the Revelation.

Amen.

Link to comment

Impressed? No... it just seems that what Jospeh Smith restored was too similar to Swedenborg's book to be coincidence.

Well that seems to paint me in a pretty bad light doesn't it? backhanded? I just asked a question based on what I read. Again, it seems to be too much of a coincidence to not have been inspired in some way.

Sorry, Thews! I'm not biting. You seem here to be trying to leave the impression that because Swedenborg's material seems to match up with Joseph's received revelations that Swedenborg must have been inspired in his view of the kingdoms of God, just as Joseph was inspired by God in his. You cleverly, so you think, try to use a bit of sophistry here with your, " it seems to be too much of a coincidence to not have been inspired in some way." I assert that your pointing to coincidence here is not a reference to Swedenborg and Joseph coming to nearly the same revelatory conception of the Celestial Kingdom by way of God's inspiration to both. Rather, you are trying to suggest that Joseph's inspiration was nothing more than plagiarism of Swedenborg's work. What do I rest my assertion on?

In another thread, Is the LDS faith monothesitc, henothestic... or optional?, you wrote that you are not LDS,

Post#7:

I assume you are LDS (I am not).

Later, in the same thread, you wrote:

Post#72:

The Bible and Book of Mormon are different. The Bible and the Book of Abraham are different. The Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon and belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God are exclusive to Mormonism.

Since you are not LDS you do not believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. You do not, therefore, believe that Joseph was inspired by God. Therefore, you believe that Swedenborg, coming to a view of the Celestial Kingdom similar to Joseph's view, must have been as inspired by God to the same degree in his view of the Celestial Kingdom as was Joseph in his. That is, not at all!

Add to this, that you are an apostate from the LDS faith:

This, from you, in the thread, The Great Church History Cover-up...

Post#26

You're right... my bad. I should have said the reason polygamy was introduced was because there wasn't enough men (I mistakenly said women). This is what was said to me when I asked about it when I was a Mormon (also added that the men died because of persecution which was also false).

This post below in reply to Pahoran, from the same thread, preceded that quoted above:

Post#21

When you mentioned plural marriage, did you also claim that there weren?t enough women and that?s why Joseph Smith introduced polygamy? Did you also tell them that Joseph Smith had many wives, some as young as 14 and 15, and he would give them 24 hours to decide whether or not to marry him? Or that he would promise the girl's parents eternal salvation for "giving" him their daughter? Did you print out and show them the letter written by Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney and her parents (this was written to her parents and is very obvious in its intent if you look at it critically), claiming it was only safe for them (yes it was addressed to all three of them which is a moot point) to come, but only if Emma wasn?t there, and he mentions twice in the letter he is lonely? (no mobs or bad guys, but just if Emma wasn?t there as the only non-safe condition). Did you mention polyandry and that Joseph Smith married women that he?d sent their husbands off on far away missions? Did you mention that Joseph Smith accused Emma of trying to poison him after he introduced polygamy?

Regarding the Carthage jail, did you mention Joseph Smith wasn?t wearing his sacred undergarments when he was shot? Did you also mention that he and his brother and the others there were drinking wine in the jail? Did you mention exactly what Joseph Smith said as the mob stormed in which included the Masonic Grand Hailing Sign of Distress is "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?"

In response to this post, I find the versions told do not encompass the entire truth, but only parts of it. If you want to believe Joseph Smith didn?t marry 14 and 15 year old girls, then you can probably find a way to rationalize it as symbolic, but if you read the actual letter he wrote to Sarah Ann Whitney there is no doubt Emma was being deceived. Would you agree? (Note ? I can find actual pictures of this letter if you want, but I?m not sure about the rules regarding what?s off limits).

regards,

thews

Your diatribe against Joseph says it all.

Drop the " I just asked a question..." innocent act, ok!

At least, be honest here about your intended purpose.

Link to comment

Your diatribe against Joseph says it all.

Drop the " I just asked a question..." innocent act, ok!

At least, be honest here about your intended purpose.

I think I have had the most dialgue with thews since he got here. I the first thread he started I still wonder why he cares if LDS claim to be monotheistic or polythesitic. He is so hung up on the idea that JS taught "2 personages" that is clearly polytheistic. When I went to bible verse he wanted to hear nothing of it. I asked "so what if mormons are polytheistic" I am still waiting to see what the answer is to taht question.

The point of all of this is to set up a "gotcha" moment were in he will truimphally claim that the bible is monotheistic and JS go it wrong. If Thews still maintians that is not the point of that other thread, what was it then?

This is another one of those threads were JS just got it wrong and this Emanual is the source of the 3 dagrees of glory.

I agree the writing on the wall speaks volumes.

Link to comment

Sorry, Thews! I'm not biting. You seem here to be trying to leave the impression that because Swedenborg's material seems to match up with Joseph's received revelations that Swedenborg must have been inspired in his view of the kingdoms of God, just as Joseph was inspired by God in his. You cleverly, so you think, try to use a bit of sophistry here with your, " it seems to be too much of a coincidence to not have been inspired in some way." I assert that your pointing to coincidence here is not a reference to Swedenborg and Joseph coming to nearly the same revelatory conception of the Celestial Kingdom by way of God's inspiration to both. Rather, you are trying to suggest that Joseph's inspiration was nothing more than plagiarism of Swedenborg's work. What do I rest my assertion on?

Well, I did ask the question as the coincidences seem far too close to be by chance, but if you want my opinion, I must admit I agree with your conclusion on what my conclusion would be, and you would be correct that I would conclude Joseph Smith used (you could call it inspiration?) Swedenborg's work in writing the Book of Mormon.

In another thread, Is the LDS faith monothesitc, henothestic... or optional?, you wrote that you are not LDS,

Later, in the same thread, you wrote:

Since you are not LDS you do not believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. You do not, therefore, believe that Joseph was inspired by God. Therefore, you believe that Swedenborg, coming to a view of the Celestial Kingdom similar to Joseph's view, must have been as inspired by God to the same degree in his view of the Celestial Kingdom as was Joseph in his. That is, not at all!

Again, you are correct as I make no false claims of who I am or what I believe. I believe Jesus Chirst is God and the only God, and I also believe Joseph Smith was wrong in a lot of things (polygamy, polyandry, racism, marrying girls 14 and 15, etc.), but what I didn't understand is how one could follow Joseph Smith and consider themselves monothestic, as this is clearly not what Joseph Smith taught. So, once again you've outed me, but it's all things I've already admitted.

Regarding Swedenborg's work, I was curious what LDS members thought, and the first response by nackhadlow was something I didn't know about.

Add to this, that you are an apostate from the LDS faith:

This, from you, in the thread, The Great Church History Cover-up...

This post below in reply to Pahoran, from the same thread, preceded that quoted above:

And once again you've put the spotlight on me and I admit you are correct. In that thread, the claim that there was no whitewashing of the truth was made, yet the claim that polygamy was needed because there just weren't enough men was incorrect. I'm failing to see your point, other than you disagree with my points.

Your diatribe against Joseph says it all.

Drop the " I just asked a question..." innocent act, ok!

At least, be honest here about your intended purpose.

I'm hardly being dishonest, as everything you've posted above is all out in the open. I assumed this was aplace for non-LDS to converse with LDS and this is why

I'm here. Just because you disagree with me and the question I asked threathens you, there's really no need to attack me and accuse me of being "backhanded," but if the questions invoke the anger in you for me asking them, then that explains a lot. I am not being deceptive, as you have clearly pointed out above. Now, can you answer the question I asked? What do you believe is the source for Swedenborg's work on the Celestial kingdom?

Link to comment

I think I have had the most dialgue with thews since he got here. I the first thread he started I still wonder why he cares if LDS claim to be monotheistic or polythesitic. He is so hung up on the idea that JS taught "2 personages" that is clearly polytheistic. When I went to bible verse he wanted to hear nothing of it. I asked "so what if mormons are polytheistic" I am still waiting to see what the answer is to taht question.

The point of all of this is to set up a "gotcha" moment were in he will truimphally claim that the bible is monotheistic and JS go it wrong. If Thews still maintians that is not the point of that other thread, what was it then?

This is another one of those threads were JS just got it wrong and this Emanual is the source of the 3 dagrees of glory.

I agree the writing on the wall speaks volumes.

You make it seem as if my opinion is somehow hidden? You are correct that you responsed to the other thread many times when I asked you not to use bible quotes, as the question was asking about Mormon doctrine. You seem that I have a "gotcha" moment in my sights... that isn't going to happen to me, but the questions I asked you are obviously threatening you, which I why you're following me around from thread to thread saying the same things as if you have some "gotcha" moment for me... are the questions i asked you that much of a threat to you?

Link to comment

At the 2008 Sperry Symposium, J.B. Haws wrote about this subject.

http://rsc.byu.edu/pubJHawsBibleImportance.php

I haven't read it but hope it helps!

JB Haws did a magnificent job in researching and putting together this article. It really is a great read and perhaps the best up-to-date apologetic viewpoint on the "Swedenborg Connection."

I like this analysis: "careful readers of Doctrine and Covenants 76 will notice that Joseph Smith's revelation is built on a framework of direct quotations of biblical passages" amongst many others such as:

"It is therefore surprising to note that Emanuel Swedenborg apparently never quoted from, nor even referred to, 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 in any of his voluminous writings.[39] Swedenborg did call the highest level of heaven the "celestial kingdom," yet because this was a common synonym for heaven in the Christian vernacular, it would seem a serious stretch to see in this shared vocabulary a direct borrowing of Swedenborgian thought in Joseph Smith's writings.[40] Joseph Smith, based on his interpretation of the Pauline passage, called the second kingdom or heavenly level "terrestrial," while Swedenborg called that level "spiritual." The phrase "terrestrial bodies" and the single word terrestrial do appear in Swedenborg's translated writings, but never do they describe or even refer to the inhabitants of the second or "spiritual" heaven.[41] The word telestial, which Joseph Smith used to describe the lowest degree of heaven, never appears in Swedenborg's works-and indeed seems to be an invented word unique to Joseph Smith.[42]"

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...