What defines a martyr?

[Sleeper Cell]

The direct cause of his arrest was the sacking of the printing press. To outsiders, this seems to be an action that goes beyond religious expression. So even though believers tend to view Joseph's imprisonment purely in religious terms--thus the martyr connection, that thread is not as clear cut to those who do not give Joseph the prophet deference.

Are you aware of another instance in 19th century America of a mob murdering someone for destroying a printing press -- even after that person had been arrested and jailed?

[LeSellers]

Why does the rather lengthy LDS Carthage jail tour OMIT to tell visitors about Joseph's gun and his use of it (as well as those hit by his bullets) ?

Why the huge font?

What's your point?

(They do discuss the bullets that him and the other LDS persons.)

I assume you wanted this to be a sentence. As it stand it means nothing, conveys no thought whatsoever.

Lehi

[hagoth7]

Why ask critics? To my knowledge, they have never criticized Smith for this.

To my knowledge, they actually have. Repeatedly. Fair enough?

That is a question you need to address to your Church leaders. Apparently, to them, the fact that Smith had a gun and shoot back, detracts from the image of Smith that they want to present.

Actually, I really don't need to ask that of them. *If* that's what they're presenting, I wouldn't need to ask why. It would be pretty self evident. Nor would I consider it a big deal if that's what they had decided to do. That's perhaps not how I might prefer to approach living history - but I'm not them. So I have no reason to criticize.

[hagoth7]

Are you aware of another instance in 19th century America of a mob murdering someone for destroying a printing press -- even after that person had been arrested and jailed?

I'm aware of a mob murdering someone because of his printing press - after which the mob destroyed it.

Does that count as close enough?

If not, then my answer is no - I know of no such 19th-century example.

[John Larsen]

Are you aware of another instance in 19th century America of a mob murdering someone for destroying a printing press -- even after that person had been arrested and jailed?

I think your question is of too narrow a focus. In fact, there are many, many examples of people being lynched or pulled out of jail by a mob to extract some sort of justice. Even today, this is why many criminal defendants wear bullet proof vests when transporting to and from the jail.

[LeSellers]

To my knowlege, they [critics] have never criticized Smith for this.

You may have been absent from the forum during this topic's run: Joseph Smith Died in a Shoot Out. See, for example, message 137 in that topic, where "HanClinto" says,

You're leaving out the part where he kicked the hornet nest by emptying a revolver hopelessly into a charging mob.

You may have been absent for that discussion, but there are dozens of such topics in this forum alone. So, to claim that our critics do not criticize Joseph for his defense of his friends is ignoring the facts. And easily demonstrated facts at that.

Lehi

[Jaybear]

To my knowledge, they actually have. Repeatedly. Fair enough?

No that is not enough. You have to show me where they said that.

If you are going to accuse critics on this board of harboring an irrational opinion, and yes it irrational to criticize Smith for shooting back, when confronted with an armed mob, you should at least have courtesy of providing an actual quote.

In reality, some critics call to light the gun fight, not because as you allege they have "a problem" with Smith for shooting back, but because it does not comport with their perception of a martyr.

Personally, I disagree with them. I think that is an overly narrow definition of martyr.

Lehi: You may have been absent for that discussion, but there are dozens of such topics in this forum alone. So, to claim that our critics do not criticize Joseph for his defense of his friends is ignoring the facts. And easily demonstrated facts at that.

You are right. I did not see that quote. HanClinto seems to think smith may have exaccerbated the situation by shooting back. Or perhaps he is a pacifist. Or more likely, he was just being flippant,while emphasizing the materiality of the omitted fact. Perhaps you should ask him, yourself, why he said that.

[Lightbearer]

I suppose there will always be those who will spit on the martyr's crowns of Joseph and Hyrum. For me it is enough to know that God considers them martyrs:

(D&C 135:4-7) "When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: â??I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summerâ??s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF MEâ??HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.â?â??The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to goâ??shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it wasâ??he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it: And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I . . . bid farewell unto the Gentiles; yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. Hyrum Smith was forty-four years old in February, 1844, and Joseph Smith was thirty-eight in December, 1843; and henceforward their names will be classed among the martyrs of religion; and the reader in every nation will be reminded that the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth for the salvation of a ruined world; and that if the fire can scathe a green tree for the glory of God, how easy it will burn up the dry trees to purify the vineyard of corruption. They lived for glory; they died for glory; and glory is their eternal reward. From age to age shall their names go down to posterity as gems for the sanctified. They were innocent of any crime, as they had often been proved before, and were only confined in jail by the conspiracy of traitors and wicked men; and their innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail is a broad seal affixed to â??Mormonismâ? that cannot be rejected by any court on earth, and their innocent blood on the escutcheon of the State of Illinois, with the broken faith of the State as pledged by the governor, is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen."

I care not what corrupt and wicked men may say about the Prophet, I know that God considers him a martyr and that He will hold those responsible for shedding his innocent blood to the same fate of all murderers of the prophets. And just to annoy those who hold the Prophet in derision I repeat possibly the greatest song in the hymn book:

(â??27: Praise to the Man,â? Hymns of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no. 27)

"1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!

Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation,

Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

[Chorus]

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;

Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2. Praise to his memâ??ry, he died as a martyr;

Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,

Plead unto heavâ??n while the earth lauds his fame.

3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.

Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,

Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;

Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.

Millions shall know â??Brother Josephâ? again."

People will try to tarnish his memory and excuse his murderers, but the following is what the Lord said about His Prophet of the latter-days:

(D&C 122:1-4) "THE ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee; While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand. And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors. And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever."

So let it be written so let it be done!

[hagoth7]

Personal insults aside, where is the evidence that JS was killed because of his religious beliefs.

One of the affidavits laid against him at Carthage, to help hold him in prison long enough for him to be killed, was one based on his teachings about the Book of Daniel.

Some of his most outspoken critics slanted his views on Daniel as treason. And claimed that true patriots must rise up and kill the supposed tyrant.

For background, just read some of Sharp's vitrolic on the topic. Or Dallin Oaks' Carthage Conspiracy.

Clear evidence that he was killed, at least in part, because of his religious beliefs/teachings.

[hagoth7]

No that is not enough. You have to show me where they said that.

No actually, I don't.

You're a big boy. Search features are made just for such things. :0)

And Lehi has even provided you an initial link to such a thread.

[Nemesis]

Sorry. You don't have a clue. He did not "appoint himself" as the General of the legion. All officers in the militias of the united States of America in the mid-XIX were elected by the soldiery. It was thus that Joseph got his commission and his rank.

It's too bad that the facts get in the way of your mindless attack, isn't it?

Well, it wasn't true as you portrayed it, but he was a good leader, and fulfilled his office in a more than admirable fashion.

He, by the way, was not subject to mandatory militia training because of the leg operation in his childhood. But he volunteered anyway.

LTG* Joseph Smith did not appoint himself as the general of the legion but he did lead that unit, and he was much more than a run-of-the-mill military leader. The question is, does any of this have the first thing to do with his martyrdom? The answer is no because he did not die on the battlefield (well, it was the battlefield of good v. evil, and evil apparently won that day). He died because evil men trumped up charges against him, used the power of the state to incarcerate him illegally, and then to murder him in cold blood under color of yellow.

* I used the

modern

Army abbreviation for Lieutenant General

Lehi

Post like this are not helpful. Not everyone with questions is trying to attack. Consider this a warning.

Nemesis

[Scottie]

How many times did JS submit to authorities vs fleeing?

Any ideas on why he would sometimes turn himself over and sometimes flee?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1. He fought back. This is not to say that he was unjustified in his defense, but there seems to be some hesitancy in calling someone a martyr who died in a jail gunfight. The violent actions taken against Joseph were clearly wrong, but the circumstances surrounding the death fail the martyr gut test for many.

What is wrong with defending ones life? The Apostles and others ran and hid to preserve their lives. This is a form of self defense. They did not go turn themselves in to be killed. They resisted in whatever manner they could.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why does the rather lengthy LDS Carthage jail tour OMIT to tell visitors about Joseph's gun and his use of it (as well as those hit by his bullets) ?

(They do discuss the bullets that him and the other LDS persons.)

What would this have to do with the fact that he was murdered?

[Jaybear]

One of the affidavits laid against him at Carthage, to help hold him in prison long enough for him to be killed, was one based on his teachings about the Book of Daniel.

Some of his most outspoken critics slanted his views on Daniel as treason. And claimed that true patriots must rise up and kill the supposed tyrant.

For background, just read some of Sharp's vitrolic on the topic. Or Dallin Oaks' Carthage Conspiracy.

Clear evidence that he was killed, at least in part, because of his religious beliefs/teachings.

You and I have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "clear evidence."

IMO, the evidence you cite does not "clearly" address the motive and thinking of those who stormed the building and shot Smith.

[Scottie]

I believe there were a multitude of reasons that the spark grew to an inferno.

Perhaps, if we look at it from an Illinois non-Mormon resident perspective, here we have a self-proclaimed prophet who is quite clearly abusing his title. At first it was a bit disturbing, defrauding people with a bank scam and commanding his followers to purchase worthless swamp land, not to mention the whole story of the Gold Bible. Disturbing, but nothing that a lot of other self proclaimed prophets hadn't done in the past. Then the expositor exposes his polygamy, which throws a HUGE log on the fire. Along with all the "petty" misdeeds, he is acquiring multiple women??

From the non-Mormon perspective, JS kept gaining power. With each new level of power he gained, his unrighteous mandates grew as well. And now this man is commanding the largest militia in the nation and proclaiming himself king of the world? For those who did not believe in his prophetic calling, can you see how this might have caused some alarm? From the non-Mormon point of view, JS already had a history of abusing his status. What reason would they have to believe that he wouldn't abuse his prophetic mandate in commanding this army?

[Scott Lloyd]

I think this is a very interesting question with many nuances. I think there are three main issues for those who are hesitant to call him a martyr:

1. He fought back. This is not to say that he was unjustified in his defense, but there seems to be some hesitancy in calling someone a martyr who died in a jail gunfight. The violent actions taken against Joseph were clearly wrong, but the circumstances surrounding the death fail the martyr gut test for many.

Under what normative definition of the word does resisting the infliction of death disqualify one as a martyr?

Again, martyrhood consists of refusing to renounce one's beliefs as a condition for being allowed to remain alive. It does not presuppose that one passively accepts death, although some martyrs might choose to do so.

By the way, you don't clearly state your own view on this matter, you only talk obliquely about "those who are hesitant to call him a martyr."

Are you assuming Hoops's tack of arguing by proxy in behalf of unspecified others who will not enter the discussion themselves?

[thesometimesaint]

I guess those early Christians weren't really martyrs. They fought all they could against those lions.

[Cold Steel]

How many times did JS submit to authorities vs fleeing? Any ideas on why he would sometimes turn himself over and sometimes flee?

Yes, as in most circumstances people are faced with, they weigh the pros and cons.

In many instances, Joseph knew beforehand that he could beat a charge. In the situation in Missouri, he was captured. But he also broke the law by escaping (with the rest of the church leaders). He and the others were brutalized, fed human flesh and denied humane treatment. When these men escaped, people all over Missouri were keeping their eyes peeled for them, so they could imprison them again. Meanwhile, editorials all over the country spoke of what a blight Missouri was to the rest of the Republic. An Illinois publication went so far as to bemoan the fact that Missouri's star could not be removed from the U.S. flag.

Many critics would never say it, but many think that Smith and the others had it coming. That Joseph subjected himself to such imprisonments, constant fleeing, beatings and tarring, poisons, etc., and yet refrained from the violence that lesser men might be tempted to use, is one of the crowning pieces of evidence that he was who he said he was.

In the spirit of Christ, he did turn the other cheek, but he also said that a man who would not defend his family or his friends was a coward.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I believe there were a multitude of reasons that the spark grew to an inferno.

Perhaps, if we look at it from an Illinois non-Mormon resident perspective, here we have a self-proclaimed prophet who is quite clearly abusing his title. At first it was a bit disturbing, defrauding people with a bank scam and commanding his followers to purchase worthless swamp land, not to mention the whole story of the Gold Bible. Disturbing, but nothing that a lot of other self proclaimed prophets hadn't done in the past. Then the expositor exposes his polygamy, which throws a HUGE log on the fire. Along with all the "petty" misdeeds, he is acquiring multiple women??

From the non-Mormon perspective, JS kept gaining power. With each new level of power he gained, his unrighteous mandates grew as well. And now this man is commanding the largest militia in the nation and proclaiming himself king of the world? For those who did not believe in his prophetic calling, can you see how this might have caused some alarm? From the non-Mormon point of view, JS already had a history of abusing his status. What reason would they have to believe that he wouldn't abuse his prophetic mandate in commanding this army?

Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you believe everything you wrote here?

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, as in most circumstances people are faced with, they weigh the pros and cons.

In many instances, Joseph knew beforehand that he could beat a charge. In the situation in Missouri, he was captured. But he also broke the law by escaping (with the rest of the church leaders). He and the others were brutalized, fed human flesh and denied humane treatment. When these men escaped, people all over Missouri were keeping their eyes peeled for them, so they could imprison them again. Meanwhile, editorials all over the country spoke of what a blight Missouri was to the rest of the Republic. An Illinois publication went so far as to bemoan the fact that Missouri's star could not be removed from the U.S. flag.

Many critics would never say it, but many think that Smith and the others had it coming. That Joseph subjected himself to such imprisonments, constant fleeing, beatings and tarring, poisons, etc., and yet refrained from the violence that lesser men might be tempted to use, is one of the crowning pieces of evidence that he was who he said he was.

In the spirit of Christ, he did turn the other cheek, but he also said that a man who would not defend his family or his friends was a coward.

And I think this is ignored by the shameless and contemptible antagonists who try to spin the events at Carthage into something hardly resembling the facts. ("Gunfight"? Don't insult our intelligence!) By any reasonable view, Joseph's resistance against the mob was intended to protect his companions who were in the jail room with him. How could he hope to escape death by leaping from the upstairs bedroom window into the clutches of the mobbers waiting outside? It is obvious to me that he was endeavoring to draw the fury of the mob away from John Taylor and Willard Richards. Undoubtedly, his action saved their lives, as the mob left them alone once Joseph was outside.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And I think this is ignored by the shameless and contemptible antagonists who try to spin the events at Carthage into something hardly resembling the facts. ("Gunfight"? Don't insult our intelligence!) By any reasonable view, Joseph's resistance against the mob was intended to protect his companions who were in the jail room with him. How could he hope to escape death by leaping from the upstairs bedroom window into the clutches of the mobbers waiting outside? It is obvious to me that he was endeavoring to draw the fury of the mob away from John Taylor and Willard Richards. Undoubtedly, his action saved their lives, as the mob left them alone once Joseph was outside.

In the JS Movie, I can still see the image of Joseph, clutching Hyrum, crying in anguish because they killed his brother. Quite a contrast from the cold calculating Joseph, painted by his critics. Amen to your statement; why jump out the window into their hands if he was just trying to save his own skin?

[John Larsen]

Under what normative definition of the word does resisting the infliction of death disqualify one as a martyr?

Again, martyrhood consists of refusing to renounce one's beliefs as a condition for being allowed to remain alive. It does not presuppose that one passively accepts death, although some martyrs might choose to do so.

Then we would definitely have to rule out Smith. There is no indication that renouncing his beliefs would have preserved his life, nor is they any indication this offer was made.

By the way, you don't clearly state your own view on this matter, you only talk obliquely about "those who are hesitant to call him a martyr."

Are you assuming Hoops's tack of arguing by proxy in behalf of unspecified others who will not enter the discussion themselves?

That is because I don't find it a particularly useful word. It implies a presupposed status and a value judgment on the status. For example, most people will not refer to someone who dies for an enemy cause as a martyr. Thus the term implies a certain degree of dying for the right cause. I do believe that most LDS people consider him a martyr and most non-LDS do not.

[Scottie]

Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you believe everything you wrote here?

Much of it is speculation since we have no way of knowing what was going on in the minds of the mob. But one thing I am certain of, it wasn't simply because "JS was Mormon". There must have been some very disturbing perceptions about the Mormons during that time, and I believe that much of that was brought on by JS himself.

I think LDS have a very difficult time looking at it from the perspective of those non-LDS who were living around Nauvoo during that time. I hear far too often about how wicked these men were and how Satan was trying his best to destroy the church. This is FAR too simplistic an explaination.

[Scott Lloyd]

Then we would definitely have to rule out Smith. There is no indication that renouncing his beliefs would have preserved his life, nor is they any indication this offer was made.

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that, had Joseph renounced his religious claims, abdicated his leadership roles, disbanded or forsaken his followers and retreated into solitude as a private person, that his enemies would still have been bent on murdering him? Give me a break!

That is because I don't find it a particularly useful word. It implies a presupposed status and a value judgment on the status. For example, most people will not refer to someone who dies for an enemy cause as a martyr. Thus the term implies a certain degree of dying for the right cause. I do believe that most LDS people consider him a martyr and most non-LDS do not.

Again, I am speaking of normative definitions of the word, which don't place any sort of value judgment on the cause for which the martyr perishes as a condition for designating the person as a martyr. Personally, I have no problem regarding someone as a martyr, even if I am indifferent or opposed to the cause for which he was martyred.