What defines a martyr?

[John Larsen]

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that, had Joseph renounced his religious claims, abdicated his leadership roles, disbanded or forsaken his followers and retreated into solitude as a private person, that his enemies would still have been bent on murdering him? Give me a break!

Wow! I didn't say any of that stuff. That's all you.

Again, I am speaking of normative definitions of the word, which don't place any sort of value judgment on the cause for which the martyr perishes as a condition for designating the person as a martyr. Personally, I have no problem regarding someone as a martyr, even if I am indifferent or opposed to the cause for which he was martyred.

Okay.

[Wiki Wonka]

I also read that he sent for help but it was too late. Is that accurate?

This one is not accurate. It originated with Fawn Brodie and was used by at least three later authors (Abanes, Denton and Quinn). See:

Joseph Smith/Martyrdom/Nauvoo Legion to rescue Joseph

[why me]

And I think this is ignored by the shameless and contemptible antagonists who try to spin the events at Carthage into something hardly resembling the facts. ("Gunfight"? Don't insult our intelligence!) By any reasonable view, Joseph's resistance against the mob was intended to protect his companions who were in the jail room with him. How could he hope to escape death by leaping from the upstairs bedroom window into the clutches of the mobbers waiting outside? It is obvious to me that he was endeavoring to draw the fury of the mob away from John Taylor and Willard Richards. Undoubtedly, his action saved their lives, as the mob left them alone once Joseph was outside.

My gosh, I never thought of this. Thanks for the insight. And you are right, the critics use this episode to portray JS as a coward jumping to his death to save his own skin attempting to contact the masons to help him. But your take on it does make sense.

[Jeff K.]

Posted 21 minutes ago

Scott Lloyd, on 13 August 2009 - 01:12 PM, said:

Under what normative definition of the word does resisting the infliction of death disqualify one as a martyr?

Again, martyrhood consists of refusing to renounce one's beliefs as a condition for being allowed to remain alive. It does not presuppose that one passively accepts death, although some martyrs might choose to do so.

Then we would definitely have to rule out Smith. There is no indication that renouncing his beliefs would have preserved his life, nor is they any indication this offer was made.

Based on your position we would have to rule out Christ too. Had Christ renounced before Pontius Pilate, he would still be just as crucified. How far back do we go before we agree that the mob or enemy would have changed their minds and allowed someone to live? Before the first vision? Before the beatitudes?

[Jeff K.]

That is because I don't find it a particularly useful word. It implies a presupposed status and a value judgment on the status. For example, most people will not refer to someone who dies for an enemy cause as a martyr. Thus the term implies a certain degree of dying for the right cause. I do believe that most LDS people consider him a martyr and most non-LDS do not.

I know quite a number of non LDS who believe that Joseph Smith was a martyr for his religion (their point of view). They may not agree with the religion, but they do feel he was mistreated and killed because of his religion not becasue of any ancilliary reason.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow! I didn't say any of that stuff. That's all you.

You dismissed his martyr status because, in your words, there is "no indication renouncing his beliefs would have preserved his life." Renouncing his beliefs and claims would entail doing all of that. That his enemies still would have found occasion to murder him thereafter strains credulity.

[Jaybear]

Again, I am speaking of normative definitions of the word, which don't place any sort of value judgment on the cause for which the martyr perishes as a condition for designating the person as a martyr. Personally, I have no problem regarding someone as a martyr, even if I am indifferent or opposed to the cause for which he was martyred.

Nice to know your opinions here are fact driven. For some reason, people seem to think that the word martyr carries with it some kind of moral crown. I am of the opinion that some causes are worthy dying for, and some are not. As I believe religion is a man made construct, I don't hold religious martyrs in high regard.

I take it based on your normative definition, then that you consider the 911 suicide bombers to be martyrs. The willingly gave their lives in service a religious cause ... a unified Muslim state.

As I don't think any of us can really know if Smith would have willing gave his life, had he been given a choice to renounce his beliefs. Maybe, maybe not.

I have heard, that prior to incarceration, he had renounced polygamy. As that story is hearsay, I doubt any TBM's would accept it at face value, as it does not conform to their image of Smith.

I had also heard that he was threatened with his life by an angel with a flaming sword, and he chose his life over his vow of fidelity to his wife Emma. Then again, I don't really believe Smith was threatened by an angel.

You dismissed his martyr status because, in your words, there is "no indication renouncing his beliefs would have preserved his life." Renouncing his beliefs and claims would entail doing all of that. That his enemies still would have found occasion to murder him thereafter strains credulity.

You point is only relevant if John believes that Smith knew that he was going to die, if he didn't renounce his beliefs. A martry, by the classic definition is someone who willing dies, rather than renounce his believes. In the absense of a specific moment, where he is tested, those of us without a special powers to see into Smith's mind, can only speculate what he would have done.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nice to know your opinions here are fact driven.

As opposed to your own opinions about Mormonism, which seem to lack even rudimentary background knowledge.

For some reason, people seem to think that the word martyr carries with it some kind of moral crown.

I am not accountable for anyone's erroneous understanding.

And while not all martyrs die for worthy causes, those who do deserve admiration and reverence.

You point is only relevant if John believes that Smith knew that he was going to die, if he didn't renounce his beliefs. A martry, by the classic definition is someone who willing dies, rather than renounce his believes. In the absense of a specific moment, where he is tested, those of us without a special powers to see into Smith's mind, can only speculate what he would have done.

There is plenty of evidence that Joseph believed his life would be in danger — even considering his death a foregone conclusion — if he went to Carthage and delivered himself into the hands of the authorities.

But even setting that aside for the moment, it is common-sense understanding that Joseph ultimately was killed because he refused to cave in to mob pressure.

[Jeff K.]

I have heard, that prior to incarceration, he had renounced polygamy. As that story is hearsay, I doubt any TBM's would accept it at face value, as it does not conform to their image of Smith.

We don't accept hearsay as fact? Tell me it aint so!!!!

I take it based on your normative definition, then that you consider the 911 suicide bombers to be martyrs. The willingly gave their lives in service a religious cause ... a unified Muslim state.

They are martyrs, for hate, but doubtful that it would be for their religion.

As I don't think any of us can really know if Smith would have willing gave his life, had he been given a choice to renounce his beliefs. Maybe, maybe not.

Incarceration, years of being deprived a home, dead children, sacrifice, attacks, and finally death. How many times he could have renounced his religion and gone a simpler way. You overlook all of those sacrifices and casually dismiss the last moment of his life. I would say that death was probably more of a relief than the pressure life put upon him, for most of his life.

Small minded people will always assume others are small minded also, even when the facts countering such a view are overwhelming.

[why me]

I know quite a number of non LDS who believe that Joseph Smith was a martyr for his religion (their point of view). They may not agree with the religion, but they do feel he was mistreated and killed because of his religion not becasue of any ancilliary reason.

Joseph Smith was killed because of mob intolerance. From the moment the book of mormon came forth, the persecution began. And as such, it began to mushroom into a nuclear cloud of hate until ending in murder. I suppose that for the mobs, there were many ancilliary reasons to claim as a justification for murder. And there certainly enough scare rumors to flame the fire of hate.

[Scott Lloyd]

They are martyrs, for hate, but doubtful that it would be for their religion.

The 9-11 martyrs, to my knowledge, never faced the requirement to renounce their beliefs as a condition for being allowed to remain alive.

Of course, that consideration doesn't stop Jaybear from coming up with the ugliest comparison he can think of to bolster what is essentially a weak argument.

[Jaybear]

As opposed to your own opinions about Mormonism, which seem to lack even rudimentary background knowledge.

For example....? Let me guess, every opinion I have expressed, for which you have disagreed, is the result of my ignorance.

And while not all martyrs die for worthy causes, those who do are deserving of admiration and reverence.

Admiration, sure. Reverence...?

In this instance, what cause did Smith advance by his martyrdom .... The right of town counsel to destroy a printing press that puts the mayor/general/prophet in a negative light.

There is plenty of evidence that Joseph believed his life would be in danger â?? even considering his death a foregone conclusion â?? if he went to Carthage and delivered himself into the hands of the authorities.

There is also evidence that Smith agreed to surrender based on the promise that he would be protected.

We don't know what he really believed. But, I will readily admit that he may have believed he was going to die.

But even setting that aside for the moment, it is common-sense understanding that Joseph ultimately was killed because he refused to cave in to mob pressure.

??? I don't follow your logic.

[Scott Lloyd]

For example....? Let me guess, every opinion I have expressed, for which you have disagreed, is the result of my ignorance.

I'm referring to the fact that you rather routinely demand documentation and evidence for what is in the historical record and is not reasonably debatable. In that respect, you are not unlike the Obama "birthers" or those who doubt the reality of the Holocaust or the lunar landings.

Admiration, sure. Reverence...?

By reverence, I mean deep respect and love. And yes, I believe Joseph deserves this.

In this instance, what cause did Smith advance by his martyrdom .... The right of town counsel to destroy a printing press that puts the mayor/general/prophet in a negative light.

The continued existence and eventual prosperity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Ultimately, this was not about the destruction of a printing press, despite the myopia with which you are determined to view it.

There is also evidence that Smith agreed to surrender based on the promise that he would be protected.

It's true that Gov. Thomas Ford did promise him protection, a promise which, to his enduring dishonor, he failed to keep. But Joseph, in departing for Carthage, predicted his own death and that it would be said of him that he died in cold blood.

We don't know what he really believed. But, I will readily admit that he may have believed he was going to die.

Not a very strenuous concession, given the fact that Joseph said as much.

??? I don't follow your logic.

It's not that difficult, really. I'm saying (as I have already done repeatedly) that if he had capitulated to the mobs earlier, their motive for murdering him would have dissolved.

[Jeff K.]

The 9-11 martyrs, to my knowledge, never faced the requirement to renounce their beliefs as a condition for being allowed to remain alive.

Of course, that consideration doesn't stop Jaybear from coming up with the ugliest comparison he can think of to bolster what is essentially a weak argument.

Had they renounced their faith, they would not have taken over the plane.

[Jeff K.]

Joseph Smith was killed because of mob intolerance. From the moment the book of mormon came forth, the persecution began. And as such, it began to mushroom into a nuclear cloud of hate until ending in murder. I suppose that for the mobs, there were many ancilliary reasons to claim as a justification for murder. And there certainly enough scare rumors to flame the fire of hate.

All of these things tied to his religion.

[Scott Lloyd]

Had they renounced their faith, they would not have taken over the plane.

Even without renouncing their beliefs, they were under no compulsion to die by taking over and crashing the airplanes. Jaybear's comparison is an extremely bad one.

[Pahoran]

Nice to know your opinions here are fact driven. For some reason, people seem to think that the word martyr carries with it some kind of moral crown. I am of the opinion that some causes are worthy dying for, and some are not. As I believe religion is a man made construct, I don't hold religious martyrs in high regard.

While I don't hold haters, bigots and peddlers of queer-porn in high regard either.

I take it based on your normative definition, then that you consider the 911 suicide bombers to be martyrs. The willingly gave their lives in service a religious cause ... a unified Muslim state.

Is that the very vilest, most gratuitously spiteful comparison you could think of? It sure looks like it.

And the depressing bit is that it probably took you no effort at all. Such things come so naturally to you.

Blatantly dishonest, too; we've been jaybeared yet again. As you know, nobody stormed the planes and shot them. As you know, their deaths were not inflicted upon them by others. As you know, they were free to live out their natural lives as Muslims in their home countries, or just about anywhere else in the world.

As I don't think any of us can really know if Smith would have willing gave his life, had he been given a choice to renounce his beliefs. Maybe, maybe not.

You can't, but reasonable people can. Joseph's actual words and actions are a matter of record. Scott has answered this one very well; I suggest you educate yourself on the topic.

I have heard, that prior to incarceration, he had renounced polygamy. As that story is hearsay, I doubt any TBM's would accept it at face value, as it does not conform to their image of Smith.

That, and the little fact that it is not true.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Joseph Antley]

That is a bold claim. Since you are willing to accuse ignorance and dishonest to those who do not believe as you do, I am sure you would be happy to provide us your sources on the mindset of the mob.

Do you think that if Joseph Smith taught an orthodox theology as a Methodist minister, but was still a candidate for president, mayor of Nauvoo, and still authorized the suppression of of a printing press, that that would be enough to inflame the surrounding community so much that hundreds of men, including members of the militia, would break into the prison where Joseph Smith were being kept to kill him?

"Knowing, as you must, Joe, the relation in which your black-hearted crimes and Heaven-daring blasphemies place you before God, we charge you that it is now high time that you should begin to repent in order to avert His impending vengeance." (Warsaw Signal, (Warsaw, IL), 7 February 1844)

The suppression of the Expositor --in my most humble opinion -- was merely the excuse/opportunity they were looking for.

[LeSellers]

The suppression of the Expositor --in my most humble opinion -- was merely the excuse/opportunity they were looking for.

It was the excuse, but they did not look for it, they created it.

Dan Jones testified that the guards told him that he need not suppose that he'd ever see Joseph again because they had "gone to too much trouble to get him there" in Carthage to allow him to see the sunset.

The whole Expositor thing was part of a nefarious plot to force the Prophet to act in a way that they could manipulate both public opinion and the state into letting them kill Joseph and Hyrum, too.

Lehi

[Cold Steel]

It is obvious to me that he was endeavoring to draw the fury of the mob away from John Taylor and Willard Richards. Undoubtedly, his action saved their lives, as the mob left them alone once Joseph was outside.

Undoubtedly. There were so many bullets coming through the window that I believe it was a miracle that he was hit only three times. The window also was so small that he would have had to crouch to get through it, so it required some exertion on his part. Add to that that his pistol only fired twice, I think.

Parley P. Pratt reported that one of the men shot by Joseph, by the name of Townsend, had been hit in the arm, near the shoulder, and, said Pratt, "it continued to rot without healing until it was taken off and even then it would not heal." The wife of Captain Lawn, the commander of the guards who had escorted the Smiths to the jail, saw his arm some six months later and dressed it. According to Pratt, Townsend was then gradually rotting and dying with the wound and, according to the Lawns, groaned through the night without sleeping. At one point he asked Captain Lawn's father what he thought of Joseph Smith being a prophet. When he replied that he did not know, Townsend said, "Well, I know he was a Prophet of God, and, oh, that I had stayed at home and minded my own business â?? and then I would not have lost my life and been tormented with a guilty conscience, and with this dreadful wound, which none can heal!"

Pratt wrote: "He died two or three months afterwards, having literally rotted alive!"

It's said that Herod Agrippa suffered a similar fate after committing blasphemy, and died days later while maggots feasted on his body.

Pratt also reported that a colonel of the Missouri mob died in the hospital at Sacramento in 1849, eaten with worms â?? "a large black headed kind of maggot â?? which passed through him by myriads, seemingly a half pint at a time." (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt, p.392)

.

[Sleeper Cell]

I think your question is of too narrow a focus. In fact, there are many, many examples of people being lynched or pulled out of jail by a mob to extract some sort of justice. Even today, this is why many criminal defendants wear bullet proof vests when transporting to and from the jail.

Had Joseph been lynched because the mob believed that he had committed the sort of crime for which mobs lynched already-jailed people, you may have a good point.

However, the question is not whether Joseph was murdered because he was believed to have committed â??some other crime.â? The question is whether Joseph was murdered because of the destruction of the printing press.

Absent a few other 19 century examples of people being pulled out of jail and lynched for destroying a printing press, the reasonable conclusion is that he was lynched for some other reason,.

[Joseph Antley]

We might consider other attempts on Joseph's life and what the motivations behind those were.