Zeta-Flux Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 So I was asked an interesting question. Do the modern apostles physically handle the Savior, or do they see Him in vision? Anyone know?
Mormon Questioner Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 They will never answer either yes or no when they are asked, and they will usually say it is a sacred thing. My guess is that they believe wholeheartedly that they are guided by the spirit in their decisions, and they follow the same process for that as they have since they were a deacon, through elder, through EQ Pres, through Bishop and Stake President. They ponder, examine, pray, make a decision, and then pray for a confirmation. They then feel what they believe is the spirit confirming to them that their decision is either right or wrong, and then they act. I don't believe any of them have actually visited face to face with the savior, but that also doesn't automatically mean I believe they are lying or being deceptive in any way. I am very sure that they truly believe they are being led by the savior every day, just as they have all their lives. What I don't believe is that the way that revelation is received is any different when they get to that level, it is just their sphere of responsibility is much greater. A good example is how Pres Hinckley responded when he was asked a similar question:“Now, if a problem should arise on which we don't have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kind, but just a perception in the mind.”
ttribe Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 They will never answer either yes or no when they are asked, and they will usually say it is a sacred thing. My guess is that they believe wholeheartedly that they are guided by the spirit in their decisions, and they follow the same process for that as they have since they were a deacon, through elder, through EQ Pres, through Bishop and Stake President. They ponder, examine, pray, make a decision, and then pray for a confirmation. They then feel what they believe is the spirit confirming to them that their decision is either right or wrong, and then they act. I don't believe any of them have actually visited face to face with the savior, but that also doesn't automatically mean I believe they are lying or being deceptive in any way. I am very sure that they truly believe they are being led by the savior every day, just as they have all their lives. What I don't believe is that the way that revelation is received is any different when they get to that level, it is just their sphere of responsibility is much greater. A good example is how Pres Hinckley responded when he was asked a similar question:â??Now, if a problem should arise on which we don't have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kind, but just a perception in the mind.â?What would you prefer? A press release any time one of the brethren experienced a manifestation?
Joseph Antley Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I believe that they have probably all received the Second Comforter. Whether they have "handled him" or not, I have no idea.
Nyal Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 â??Now, if a problem should arise on which we don't have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kind, but just a perception in the mind.â?This bothers me. When I think of a prophet (and the Apostles are prophets, right?) they do the following:1. Say they are a prophet. Themselves, none of this "other people declaring they are a prophet."2. See, hear, or commune with deity. A prophet has got to have some sort of access that I don't have. That's why he is a prophet and I am not. None of this "I prayed and received an inspiration" or such. God speaks to prophets in a way I cannot. Thus sayeth the lord stuff. 3. Predict stuff. Something that will happen, translate something, do something. A miracle. Can we stop with calling GC the words of the prophet?4. Smiting is handy.5. I am a sucker for a funky beard.
ttribe Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 This bothers me. When I think of a prophet (and the Apostles are prophets, right?) they do the following:1. Say they are a prophet. Themselves, none of this "other people declaring they are a prophet."2. See, hear, or commune with deity. A prophet has got to have some sort of access that I don't have. That's why he is a prophet and I am not. None of this "I prayed and received an inspiration" or such. God speaks to prophets in a way I cannot. Thus sayeth the lord stuff. 3. Predict stuff. Something that will happen, translate something, do something. A miracle. Can we stop with calling GC the words of the prophet?4. Smiting is handy.5. I am a sucker for a funky beard.It seems, for at least some periods of time, those who hold the calling of "prophet" are asked to be caretakers and teachers - see the Book of Jarom: Link. I submit that our current First Presidency and Twelve more than fit this bill.
jadams_4242 Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 This bothers me. When I think of a prophet (and the Apostles are prophets, right?) they do the following:1. Say they are a prophet. Themselves, none of this "other people declaring they are a prophet."2. See, hear, or commune with deity. A prophet has got to have some sort of access that I don't have. That's why he is a prophet and I am not. None of this "I prayed and received an inspiration" or such. God speaks to prophets in a way I cannot. Thus sayeth the lord stuff. 3. Predict stuff. Something that will happen, translate something, do something. A miracle. Can we stop with calling GC the words of the prophet?4. Smiting is handy.5. I am a sucker for a funky beard. They very often refer to themselves as apostles and speacial witnesses of Jesus christ. They do commune with deity; do you not listen to the words they speak in conferance, firesides,devotionals e;t;c... Those of us that actually listen, do receive very powerfull and life enhancing spiritual messages. If one expects to be struck with lightning when the lord is speaking, surely does not comprehend just what, and how powerfull the spirit truely is.
Nyal Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 They do commune with deity; do you not listen to the words they speak in conferance, firesides,devotionals e;t;c...No, no, no!!The words in conference, firesides, devotionals are their words, but are they God's? If they are, are they doctrine? Did god appear to them and speak them?Yes, give me some lightening.
CV75 Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 So I was asked an interesting question. Do the modern apostles physically handle the Savior, or do they see Him in vision? Anyone know?It is a sacred matter. An interaction with Christ may be manifest in many forms. We have all had one but may not recognize it as such (who has eyes to see and ears to hear?). The apostolic calling is to bear witness, and most importantl: the only witness worth bearing is that which has been obtained, shared and received by the power of the Spirit, regardless of whatever other manifestation may or may not accompany it.
John Larsen Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 If I were a special witness of Jesus, and my one job was to be a witness of Jesus, if I had actually witnessed Jesus the one thing that I would do is bear witness to the fact that I had witnessed Jesus.If I was a special witness and hadn't actually witnessed Jesus, I would be inclined to be cagey about the whole thing. If your teenager answered you the same way the Apostles talk about their "witness", you would send him to his room.
Zeta-Flux Posted April 18, 2009 Author Posted April 18, 2009 It is a sacred matter. An interaction with Christ may be manifest in many forms. We have all had one but may not recognize it as such (who has eyes to see and ears to hear?). The apostolic calling is to bear witness, and most importantl: the only witness worth bearing is that which has been obtained, shared and received by the power of the Spirit, regardless of whatever other manifestation may or may not accompany it.Sure it is a sacred matter. So was the witnessing of the Book of Mormon plates. My question is whether or not Christ asks them to witness to the reality of His physical resurrection by having them touch Him and then tell others of the experience.
Tarski Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 If I were a special witness of Jesus, and my one job was to be a witness of Jesus, if I had actually witnessed Jesus the one thing that I would do is bear witness to the fact that I had witnessed Jesus.If I was a special witness and hadn't actually witnessed Jesus, I would be inclined to be cagey about the whole thing. If your teenager answered you the same way the Apostles talk about their "witness", you would send him to his room.Precisely.A witness is a person that has seen and says so for the benefit of the truth and for those who have not seen. A witness tells what they have seen and honestly recounts the manner and circumstances of how it was witnesssed. What kind of witness refuses to tell what they have witnessed?(There is a weird tendency to try to bend the original meaning of the word "witness" to avoid these questions.)People ask what it would take for me to reconsider the church. How about if the special witnesses of Christ tell me and the rest of the world in all earnestness that they have witnessed the risen Christ and beheld his power? Not as in a dream and not with the eyes of the imagination but with their actual waking eyes and in the presence of others. Let's have some staightforward telling of what is the case in plain and honest terms.
GauchoNM Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Read the account of the Brother of Jared in Ether. I know of an apostle that compared his experience to that.
Tarski Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Read the account of the Brother of Jared in Ether. I know of an apostle that compared his experience to that.Oh? Who who??Reference please.You aren't starting or transmitting a faith promoting rumor are you?
Duncan Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Just throwing this out there but maybe being a Witness for Christ also means being a witness for what Christ is and what Christ does and not just what he looks like, I mean read DC 110 for that. They tell us how to come closer to him and what we can work on.
Duncan Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 People ask what it would take for me to reconsider the church. How about if the special witnesses of Christ tell me and the rest of the world in all earnestness that they have witnessed the risen Christ and beheld his power? Not as in a dream and not with the eyes of the imagination but with their actual waking eyes and in the presence of others. Let's have some staightforward telling of what is the case in plain and honest terms.
Sevenbak Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 So I was asked an interesting question. Do the modern apostles physically handle the Savior, or do they see Him in vision? Anyone know?Some have shared experiences with the Savior, but in private journals and to family members. I don't think it's a pearl they cast lightly.
Tarski Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Some have shared experiences with the Savior, but in private journals and to family members. I don't think it's a pearl they cast lightly.Witnesses are supposed to "witness to" what they saw. Anyway, please give reference for your claim that "Some have shared experiences with the Savior" and then tell us how those differ from yours or mine.Not to argue or anything but I think Christ's power is when an addict gives it up, when people are baptized, sins are forgiven, people are healed and lives are changed. Its what he does more so then what he looks like.It is not important what he looks like. It is important that he has risen!! (Which I surely doubt)
Sevenbak Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Witnesses are supposed to "witness to" what they saw. Anyway, please give reference for your claim that "Some have shared experiences with the Savior"Being a witness doesn't mean sharing the most sacred experiences and letting the world mock.We've dealt with this before here. A few examples were given on a previous thread. I'm sure with a little effort, you could find it.
Duncan Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Tarski,Maybe that is a role of a witness. They give their witness and then we hear it and ask is that true, what really happened, how can I know? And you get your own witness if it is or not.
Tarski Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Being a witness doesn't mean sharing the most sacred experiences and letting the world mock.We've dealt with this before here. A few examples were given on a previous thread. I'm sure with a little effort, you could find it.Its to simple to argue about. Why should they worry about being mocked? Please just be a witness for what you have witnessed. Period.
Sevenbak Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Its to simple to argue about. Why should they worry about being mocked? Please just be a witness for what you have witnessed. Period.Probably why you'll never be called to be an Apostle.This might help you.Special Witnesses of Christ
CV75 Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 by having them touch Him and then tell others of the experience.That is not the only way to receive the witness of Christ. The intent of the special witnesses ("of the name of Christ") is to lead us into a revelatory experieince which can take many forms. The special witnesses lead us to find out for ourselves (like they did), for that is the only way we can fulfill the Father's will for us. Those who receive these revelatory experiences are not limited to the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve. Please note the description in D&C 107: 23: The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the worldâ??thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. They testify of His name, not of what their individual, intimate, personal experiences with Him have been. This is their office and calling. In bearing witness of His name, they do many things: they preserve the priesthood keys in the earth, and so govern, instruct, minister and testify of how the doctrines, covenants and ordinances that are provided and performed in His name result in our taking His name upon us, and all that follows and entails what that means.We must come to know Christ for ourselves. When we do, we bear testimony of Him, but use great care in how or why we choose to share any individual, intimate personal experiences with Him, in any of their forms, for reasons that are obvious but which someone may find necessary to address in another discussion.
Yamaha Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 What would you prefer? A press release any time one of the brethren experienced a manifestation?I'd prefer, "Thus saith the Lord....."
Tarski Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 What would you prefer? A press release any time one of the brethren experienced a manifestation?I would prefer a second proclamation:"We solemnly swear that the resurrected Christ lives for we have together seen him with our own eyes and we have touched his wounds and we did so in each other's presence.We have seen him not as in a dream or reverie but frankly as one man sees and converses with another. We know that he whom we beheld is not an impostor, indeed, we have witnessed his power for we have beheld that he has mastery over nature and over life and death and we did witness this power."
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