Did Joseph ever demonstrate his ability as a treasure-hunter?

[Joseph Antley]

Hopefully some of the more learned in Mormon history can answer these questions for me.

1) Did Joseph have a reputation as someone possessing the ability to see hidden objects in stones?

1a) If so, how did he gain that reputation?

2) Did Joseph ever have any successful treasure-hunts? i.e., where he successfully led a group to finding something valuable?

3) When the treasure-hunters failed to find anything valuable in the locations that Joseph designated, did they feel any animosity or anger towards him?

I realize that evidence from this period is scant and tenuous, but I'll even take your speculation.

[Eguzkitanedan]

Hopefully some of the more learned in Mormon history can answer these questions for me.

1) Did Joseph have a reputation as someone possessing the ability to see hidden objects in stones?

1a) If so, how did he gain that reputation?

2) Did Joseph ever have any successful treasure-hunts? i.e., where he successfully led a group to finding something valuable?

3) When the treasure-hunters failed to find anything valuable in the locations that Joseph designated, did they feel any animosity or anger towards him?

I realize that evidence from this period is scant and tenuous, but I'll even take your speculation.

I want to know how many of these treasure-hunters ever found anything at all. I can't recall ever reading in the two classes I took on early American history in college anything about magnificent piles of treasure oozing from the ground in western New York.

[Scottie]

Joseph did have some success finding lost tools with his peepstone, however was unable to ever find any treasure. His excuse was that the treasure had an "enchantment" placed upon it which caused it to move deeper into the ground as they got close to it.

There were charges brought up against JS for his failure to find any treasure, but I believe they were either dismissed or dropped. So, yes, there was animosity against Joseph.

[LDSMusic483]

Joseph did have some success finding lost tools with his peepstone, however was unable to ever find any treasure. His excuse was that the treasure had an "enchantment" placed upon it which caused it to move deeper into the ground as they got close to it.

There were charges brought up against JS for his failure to find any treasure, but I believe they were either dismissed or dropped. So, yes, there was animosity against Joseph.

Were the charges brought by those who tried to employ his services, or by other individuals who thought it might be a useful charge against him?

[Scottie]

Were the charges brought by those who tried to employ his services, or by other individuals who thought it might be a useful charge against him?

Both.

However, it is important to note that Josiah Stowell, who originally hired JS for the failed money digging expedition, remained a faithful LDS member.

[Glenn101]

Joseph did have some success finding lost tools with his peepstone, however was unable to ever find any treasure. His excuse was that the treasure had an "enchantment" placed upon it which caused it to move deeper into the ground as they got close to it.

There were charges brought up against JS for his failure to find any treasure, but I believe they were either dismissed or dropped. So, yes, there was animosity against Joseph.

If I recall, the "excuse" was not articulated by Joseph himself but by a testator at the 1826 "glass looker" examination in Bainbridge, New York. The animosity exhibited was not by the employer, Josiah Stowell, but by some kinfolk who felt Josiah was being duped by Joseph.

Josiah himself had great faith in Joseph's abilities and testified to such at the examination. He was the one who sought out Joseph in the first place because he had heard that Joseph had a stone with which he could see things not apparent to the unaided senses. there is no recorded instance of Joseph himself ever proclaiming to be able to find lost treasure. According to Joseph, he was dissuaded Stowell from any further futility after a month or so of fruitless searches.

I don't have the references for this at my finger tips, but the Maxwell Institute, nee F.A.R.M.S. should have material related to the treasure seeking and simple Googling should also bring up some hits.

Glenn

[Pahoran]

Joseph did have some success finding lost tools with his peepstone, however was unable to ever find any treasure. His excuse was that the treasure had an "enchantment" placed upon it which caused it to move deeper into the ground as they got close to it.

CFR that this was "his excuse."

Not Pomeroy Tucker's. Not Hurlbut's affidavit-swearers. His.

Regards,

Pahoran

[John Williams]

Here are some citations from the FAIR web site:

Martin Harris tells us, "I...was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw... We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, 'Take your stone.' ... He took it and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and place his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look to one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.26

Martin Harris also tells us that Joseph used the seer stone to find the gold plates. "In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates."27

Henry Harris says, "He [Joseph Smith] said he had a revelation from God that told him they [the Book of Mormon plates] were hid in a certain hill and he looked in his stone and saw them in the place of deposit."28

A Mr. Wanderhoof reports that Joseph used his seer stone to find a stolen mare for his grandfather.29

The "trial" also provides evidences of Joseph's abilities. Purple tells us that, "Josiah Stowell provides several examples and has absolute faith in his ability." Now Purple didn't give us those examples, but he records that Josiah Stowell provided them.

[Scottie]

CFR that this was "his excuse."

Not Pomeroy Tucker's. Not Hurlbut's affidavit-swearers. His.

Regards,

Pahoran

Why should I question what was said on an affidavit? Do you have reason to believe that either of these men were dishonest or had cause to lie?

Oh, wait, that's right. Anyone that said anything bad about JS MUST be lying and of the devil, right?

Puh-leze!!!!

Remember, this was WELL before the church was organized. It wasn't like in Nauvoo where people were out to get him. I have no reason to believe that these men were lying and until you can muster up some backwards reasoning, which I'm sure you will do, the affidavit is good enough for me.

[Joseph Antley]

Remember, this was WELL before the church was organized. It wasn't like in Nauvoo where people were out to get him. I have no reason to believe that these men were lying and until you can muster up some backwards reasoning, which I'm sure you will do, the affidavit is good enough for me.

Yes, because Joseph and his Gold Bible were quite popular before Nauvoo.

[Scottie]

Yes, because Joseph and his Gold Bible were quite popular before Nauvoo.

Well, if what John W posted is correct, JS used the peepstone to locate the gold plates. This incident would have been even before that.

[phaedrus ut]

Does having confidence in Joseph Smith mean that you need to believe that magical rocks are a reality? On what technical ability does the rock locate the missing item? Are there intelligent mineral elements in the rock that are able to interpret the language and request of the rocks user then go locate the treasure? Then by what communication mechanism does the stone communicate this information back to the user then guide them to the locations. Telepathy? GPS?

I can't see how a rational person can incorporate magic rocks with treasure locating, communication, and translation abilities into a logical understanding of how the world works.

If your home teacher told you he could find treasure and translate ancient languages with a magic rock he found would you believe him? What would you think when he offered to do it for money?

Phaedrus

[Joseph Antley]

Does having confidence in Joseph Smith mean that you need to believe that magical rocks are a reality? On what technical ability does the rock locate the missing item? Are there intelligent mineral elements in the rock that are able to interpret the language and request of the rocks user then go locate the treasure? Then by what communication mechanism does the stone communicate this information back to the user then guide them to the locations. Telepathy? GPS?

Were I believer in the ability to locate hidden objects by peering into stones, my faith would more likely be in the seer, not the stone itself.

I can't see how a rational person can incorporate magic rocks with treasure locating, communication, and translation abilities into a logical understanding of how the world works.

I don't see how it's all that different than incorporating supernatural beings such as angels or demons, people rising from the dead, or the magical transfiguration of water into wine.

If your home teacher told you he could find treasure and translate ancient languages with a magic rock he found would you believe him? What would you think when he offered to do it for money?

No, I wouldn't. As I have no need for such a service, and don't believe in it anyway, I would think he was a little strange.

Of course I don't see why my views would be relevant to the trasure-digging culture of early 19th century New England, where people did believe in such abilities.

[Scottie]

I don't see how it's all that different than incorporating supernatural beings such as angels or demons, people rising from the dead, or the magical transfiguration of water into wine.

Or the magic of David Blaine or Criss Angel.

[phaedrus ut]

I don't see how it's all that different than incorporating supernatural beings such as angels or demons, people rising from the dead, or the magical transfiguration of water into wine.

Agreed. The miraculous need not be rational.

No, I wouldn't. As I have no need for such a service, and don't believe in it anyway, I would think he was a little strange.

Of course I don't see why my views would be relevant to the trasure-digging culture of early 19th century New England, where people did believe in such abilities.

There was a folk magic culture of the time but I think there should be a different standard to those who believe the claims and those who make the claims.

If I hire myself out as a treasure finder with a rock I'm either self deluded believing I have "magic rock treasure finding abilities" or I'm running a confidence game.

Phaedrus

[Joseph Antley]

There was a folk magic culture of the time but I think there should be a different standard to those who believe the claims and those who make the claims.

If I hire myself out as a treasure finder with a rock I'm either self deluded believing I have "magic rock treasure finding abilities" or I'm running a confidence game.

Phaedrus

I agree. I don't believe most of the treasure-seers at the time were intentional deceivers.

[Calm]

Why should I question what was said on an affidavit? Do you have reason to believe that either of these men were dishonest or had cause to lie?

You don't think it's important to establish the lineage of historical sources then? That instead if an individual appears to be honest, we can report anything he repeats about what others have said as fact as opposed to hearsay or a second/thirdhand source?

[Calm]

Remember, this was WELL before the church was organized. It wasn't like in Nauvoo where people were out to get him. I have no reason to believe that these men were lying and until you can muster up some backwards reasoning, which I'm sure you will do, the affidavit is good enough for me.

Are you saying that Hurlburt and/or Tucker collected his material prior to the time the church was organized, etc?

edited to get the names right, half asleep this morning

[phaedrus ut]

I agree. I don't believe most of the treasure-seers at the time were intentional deceivers.

I notice that with most psychics/mediums/fortune tellers also believe in their abilities so I agree that it would also likely be the case back then.

Phaedrus

[Scottie]

You don't think it's important to establish the lineage of historical sources then? That instead if an individual appears to be honest, we can report anything he repeats about what others have said as fact as opposed to hearsay or a second/thirdhand source?

No, but I have no reason to question what a sworn affidavit said. By nature, an affidavit is a sworn oath that what the person saying is the truth. I will accept that until it can be shown that the person had reason to lie.

Certainly there are many instances of heresay against JS and I take those with a grain of salt. This is not one of them.

Are you saying that Hurlburt and/or Tucker collected his material prior to the time the church was organized, etc?

edited to get the names right, half asleep this morning

Collected what material? I don't understand the question.

[Calm]

Collected what material? I don't understand the question.

The affidavits.

[Scottie]

The affidavits.

I believe so. IIRC, all of this transpired before Joseph reported that he had found any gold plates.

Also, the treasure seeking was in Pennsylvania, not Palmyra, so it would be doubtful that they would have known about the gold plates.

[phaedrus ut]

Hopefully some of the more learned in Mormon history can answer these questions for me.

1) Did Joseph have a reputation as someone possessing the ability to see hidden objects in stones?

1a) If so, how did he gain that reputation?

3) When the treasure-hunters failed to find anything valuable in the locations that Joseph designated, did they feel any animosity or anger towards him?

I realize that evidence from this period is scant and tenuous, but I'll even take your speculation.

Marvin Hill's BYU Studies article about Joseph's 1826 trial does a pretty good job in covering Joseph's background as a "glass looker". Joseph's father-in-law,Isaac Hale, also talks about Joseph putting his stone in the hat to find buried treasure. Also that Joseph, his father, and other men boarded with the Hales while they were "money digging" for Spanish treasure. Hale specifically mentions that his disapproval of Joseph's business was one reason he denied Joseph's request for Emma's hand.

The 1826 trial shows that at least some people weren't happy when the treasure wasn't found.

2) Did Joseph ever have any successful treasure-hunts? i.e., where he successfully led a group to finding something valuable?

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v 19, p 37-38

"the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an Iron kettle 25 feet under ground. He saw it while looking in another seers stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it."

Phaedrus

//Is it me or does using seer stones to find more seer stones seem like cheating? It's like wishing for more wishes!

[Calm]

I believe so. IIRC, all of this transpired before Joseph reported that he had found any gold plates.

CFR please.

[why me]

I don't think that Joseph Smith ever demonstrated his ability as a treasure hunter except when the plates were discovered. His first inclination was to count up the wealth that the gold plates would give him. But of course, he soon realized that the plates had a different purpose.

But as a money digger he was unsuccessful. What it does show is that the lord can use those who are ignorant to do his work. JS was a farmer and money digger with his father. He wanted to find his fortune. But...in the end, he became a prophet.