god is a man

[LeSellers]

Where in the bible does He say we can become Gods?

Frankly, I do not care that (you believe) the Bible doesn't say we can become Gods.

The Bible is incomplete. It says so in several places, and therefor, there is no reason to imagine that we can find everything in it.

There is no place in the Bible that tells us we should, and nothing there that makes the claim that the Bible is inerrant. The history of the Bible is fraught with battles over what should have been included, and what excluded. Translators made their own errors, and the transmission process was hardly perfect.

No, I do not care that (you believe) the Bible doesn't say we can become Gods. Because God has restored His truths.

Lehi

[Cold Steel]

I am beginning to understand this. However, I think Traditional Christians have a different understanding than Mormons of what it means to be One with God. It is still a mystery to me. The Spirit is helping me understand what He has already revealed to us. He is continually illuminating more of His revealed will in my life.

Joseph Smith said that if he revealed a fraction of what he'd been taught that his greatest friends would become his enemies. Man is still not ready to receive vast amounts of information still not revealed, and Orson Pratt asked rhetorically what the learned professors of other religions expected of Christ during the Millennium. Do they expect Him to stay seated on a throne and not teach any more than has been taught today? No, He will converse with men in that day and teach them things they didn't know and had never thought of.

If people think that the Mormons shy away from certain elements of their faith, the same thing can be said of the early Christians. Think how strange the concept of God being composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They'd never considered such a thing, and many of them then (and now) find it a major stumbling block in accepting Christ.

The New Testament writers drew a distinction between God and Jesus, even though they taught amongst themselves that Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus, too, drew that distinction when He said that He was ascending to "your God and to my God." This has caused some Christians to question whether Jesus was, in fact, God. At least one member of this forum maintains that neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit are Gods, but that they are, together, one God. By doing this, they hope to escape the label of "polytheists" which they're very anxious to paste on us. That works only as long as they don't read the New Testament, where the writers often refer to Jesus as being sent of God, ascending to God, sitting on the right hand of God, and so forth.

One other thing to consider is this: if man is in the image of God, it means that God has a physical body that outwardly is designed for a terrestrial existence. Hands, feet, ears, fingers, toes, mouth, etc. This begs the question of: why, if He'd never lived on an earth, would He have a body like man's? Jesus, we know, is in the "express image" of the Father, and in the beginning They said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

The ramifications of all this is mind boggling, but Joseph Smith comes closer than any other man in giving this meaning.

Where in the bible does He say we can become Gods?

The Bible says that man can become "joint heirs" with Christ. Jesus becomes like the Father and we become like the Son. In a real sense, we join the oneness. Those who become as God, and who become creators of worlds, will be able to say that God is One, and that there are no Gods besides God. Nothing changes. It's a wonderful concept.

[Mormon2Christian]

Joseph Smith said that if he revealed a fraction of what he'd been taught that his greatest friends would become his enemies. Man is still not ready to receive vast amounts of information still not revealed, and Orson Pratt asked rhetorically what the learned professors of other religions expected of Christ during the Millennium. Do they expect Him to stay seated on a throne and not teach any more than has been taught today? No, He will converse with men in that day and teach them things they didn't know and had never thought of.

If people think that the Mormons shy away from certain elements of their faith, the same thing can be said of the early Christians. Think how strange the concept of God being composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They'd never considered such a thing, and many of them then (and now) find it a major stumbling block in accepting Christ.

The New Testament writers drew a distinction between God and Jesus, even though they taught amongst themselves that Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus, too, drew that distinction when He said that He was ascending to "your God and to my God." This has caused some Christians to question whether Jesus was, in fact, God. At least one member of this forum maintains that neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit are Gods, but that they are, together, one God. By doing this, they hope to escape the label of "polytheists" which they're very anxious to paste on us. That works only as long as they don't read the New Testament, where the writers often refer to Jesus as being sent of God, ascending to God, sitting on the right hand of God, and so forth.

One other thing to consider is this: if man is in the image of God, it means that God has a physical body that outwardly is designed for a terrestrial existence. Hands, feet, ears, fingers, toes, mouth, etc. This begs the question of: why, if He'd never lived on an earth, would He have a body like man's? Jesus, we know, is in the "express image" of the Father, and in the beginning They said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

The ramifications of all this is mind boggling, but Joseph Smith comes closer than any other man in giving this meaning.

The Bible says that man can become "joint heirs" with Christ. Jesus becomes like the Father and we become like the Son. In a real sense, we join the oneness. Those who become as God, and who become creators of worlds, will be able to say that God is One, and that there are no Gods besides God. Nothing changes. It's a wonderful concept.

Even God has to answer to God. Why do you think Jesus was all about His Fathers business? Before Jesus walked the Earth people who studied OT books knew of His coming and had a basic understanding of the Trinity. As we progressed through time new questions were raised which had to be answered. All of Gods revealed will is revealed in the bible. It is sufficient for us to believe and know His will. If you think He is incapable of making His will known to all humans you had better take a closer look at who God really is.

[LeSellers]

All of Gods revealed will is revealed in the bible.

Where does it say this, even in the Bible?

It is sufficient for us to believe and know His will. If you think He is incapable of making His will known to all humans you had better take a closer look at who God really is.

This doesn't say what you think it does.

Yes, we must know His will, but if you think it's all in the Bible, you're just plain wrong.

Lehi

[jonzlaw]

One other thing to consider is this: if man is in the image of God, it means that God has a physical body that outwardly is designed for a terrestrial existence. Hands, feet, ears, fingers, toes, mouth, etc. This begs the question of: why, if He'd never lived on an earth, would He have a body like man's? Jesus, we know, is in the "express image" of the Father, and in the beginning They said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Why is this necessarily so? Does "In His image" necessarily mean in a physical sense?

[Deborah]

Why is this necessarily so? Does "In His image" necessarily mean in a physical sense?

If not in the physical sense then how are we in his image?

[mfbukowski]

God is not a man. God is an inclusive term for beings who attain it. If you are a joint heir with Christ and gain eternal life, you become One with God. In short, you are no longer a man. This is clearly stated in Doctrine & Covenants 76. In a real sense you are not only "a" god, but you are God and you will dwell with God.

This is a great explanation!

[consiglieri]

I am beginning to understand this. However, I think Traditional Christians have a different understanding than Mormons of what it means to be One with God. It is still a mystery to me. The Spirit is helping me understand what He has already revealed to us. He is continually illuminating more of His revealed will in my life.

So, if it's a "mystery" to you, on what basis can you so roundly reject the Mormon explanation?

This puts me in mind of an anti-Mormon tract I once read, in which Revelation 14:6 was being discussed. After pooh-pooh'ing the idea that it could possibly refer to the angel Moroni, the author confessed he didn't know what the verse meant, but he was sure it didn't mean that!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Avatar4321]

Even God has to answer to God. Why do you think Jesus was all about His Fathers business? Before Jesus walked the Earth people who studied OT books knew of His coming and had a basic understanding of the Trinity. As we progressed through time new questions were raised which had to be answered. All of Gods revealed will is revealed in the bible. It is sufficient for us to believe and know His will. If you think He is incapable of making His will known to all humans you had better take a closer look at who God really is.

So I guess God doesnt care if i go out and kill people tomorrow. After all His will is revealed in the Bible. Im not in the Bible. Therefore He must not care what I do.

I assume you will clearly see the absurdity to such an argument.

[jonzlaw]

If not in the physical sense then how are we in his image?

Is it possible that when God made us "In His image" He meant for us to reflect His greatness?

[littlechild]

A better question is where in the bible does it say God was once a man? Doesn't the bible say He has been God for all eternity and there is no other God? There are many gods but only One Creator God. God bless EVERYONE

Is Creator God a special case of God?

[Deborah]

Is it possible that when God made us "In His image" He meant for us to reflect His greatness?

In order to do that we must become perfect. Only by becoming perfect can we be like him or "reflect his greatness". And if that is the case that we can become like him or become a reflection of him then that surely means we can become gods in embryo. And if we must become perfect then that entails that there have to be works commensurate with his. None of this of course is a problem for LDS, but how does it fit with the view that all we have to do is "accept" the right Jesus. How does that in and of itself "reflect his greatness" and how can that possibly be in his image if we are merely passive receptors of his grace.

[marnieh]

In order to do that we must become perfect. Only by becoming perfect can we be like him or "reflect his greatness". And if that is the case that we can become like him or become a reflection of him then that surely means we can become gods in embryo. And if we must become perfect then that entails that there have to be works commensurate with his. None of this of course is a problem for LDS, but how does it fit with the view that all we have to do is "accept" the right Jesus. How does that in and of itself "reflect his greatness" and how can that possibly be in his image if we are merely passive receptors of his grace.

This doesn't make sense. We can't ever become perfect. But we can try to be like him, and by trying we reflect his greatness. I agree that there should be works. But when you say that works commensurate with His are of course no problem for the LDS I don't get that at all. Can you explain? I think I understand the LDS belief about works being required for salvation but I think its backwards. I think salvation brings works, not the other way around. Also what do you mean by passive receptors of His grace? How can anyone be a passive receptor of His grace? How could someone passively accept His grace and His gift of forgiveness and salvation?

[AeonJ]

hello: a serious question. where in the bom, d&c or pogp does it clearly state that god is a man ?

Well it does say He's a father, so I would hope it's a man.

[Mormon2Christian]

Me thinks you take much liberty in interpretting the Biblical text. Regards,Sentinus

Amen.

Is Creator God a special case of God?

What do you mean by "a special case of God"?

[Mormon2Christian]

Is it possible that when God made us "In His image" He meant for us to reflect His greatness?

Yes.

We are to glorify God but not be God or a God. We are gods made in His image. We are made by Him for Him and His purposes.

[Mormon2Christian]

Where does it say this, even in the Bible?

This doesn't say what you think it does.

Yes, we must know His will, but if you think it's all in the Bible, you're just plain wrong.

Lehi

Another circular argument with lds and the bible. You are free to believe anything you want about His Word. Your life, your choice. (which I'm sure you'll be "saved" since you do believe and put your trust in Jesus). I hope this is not an irrational prejudice.

His Spirit has shown me sufficient evidence in the bible of Him. There is no further need of additional scripture.

Read Galations! In fact read the entire bible and have faith.

Many people in many cultures have had much less, and God will hold all equally accountable except those of priviledged knowledge who teach etc. They will have a more severe judgement than those who are ignorant.

[Aquilifer]

Where does it say this, even in the Bible?

This doesn't say what you think it does.

Yes, we must know His will, but if you think it's all in the Bible, you're just plain wrong.

Lehi

Another circular argument with lds and the bible.

How is that circular reasoning?

[Deborah]

This doesn't make sense. We can't ever become perfect.

Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

when you say that works commensurate with His are of course no problem for the LDS I don't get that at a

What is it Christ did? He loved others, he had compassion on others, he kept the commandments of his Father, he healed the sick, gave comfort to the sorrowful. It is to follow Christ, to make and keep Covenants. You may believe works are needed but many EV's do not. James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

How can anyone be a passive receptor of His grace?

by believing all he has to do is believe and that works are not necessary for salvation. It is true that after all we can do if it is not for his grace we can't be saved but that is only after all we can do.

[marnieh]

Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

What is it Christ did? He loved others, he had compassion on others, he kept the commandments of his Father, he healed the sick, gave comfort to the sorrowful. It is to follow Christ, to make and keep Covenants. You may believe works are needed but many EV's do not. James 2

by believing all he has to do is believe and that works are not necessary for salvation. It is true that after all we can do if it is not for his grace we can't be saved but that is only after all we can do.

Does the quote from Genesis mean that you believe you are perfect or can be perfect? I didn't say that I thought works were needed, I said that there should be works. Our faith in Christ guarantees salvation from eternal judgement as promised in John 3:18, but that faith does not promise salvation from the consequences of sin, which is what I think is pointed out in James 2:14.

I still don't think a person can passively believe. Maybe passively is not the best word? Doesn't a person have to make a decision for Christ?

[LeSellers]

All of Gods revealed will is revealed in the bible.

Where does it say this, even in the Bible?

You did not answer my simple question. Where does the Bible say this?

We're still waiting for you to show us where the Bible says everything we need for salvation is in it. As it never does, you are forced to extrapolate that from a self-admitted incomplete book.

Another circular argument with lds and the bible.

How is this "circular"? If, by "circular", you mean an argument you cannot answer, then, and only then, you are correct.

You keep claiming that the Bible is complete and inerrant, etc., but you never demonstrate your position is correct. You imagine that making the claim is sufficient for us to accept it. Here's a news flash: it isn't.

You are free to believe anything you want about His Word. Your life, your choice. (which I'm sure you'll be "saved" since you do believe and put your trust in Jesus). I hope this is not an irrational prejudice.

No, I do believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and my Redeemer, and I trust Him to be faithful to His words.

His Spirit has shown me sufficient evidence in the bible of Him. There is no further need of additional scripture.

Yet it never says anything like this in the Bible. If it is complete, why does it never say so? Seems to be a defect in your idol.

Read Galations! In fact read the entire bible and have faith.

How very judgmental. I have read the Bible, including Galatians. I have faith. BTW, learn the spelling of Galatians, and the capitalization of the "Bible".

Many people in many cultures have had much less, and God will hold all equally accountable except those of priviledged knowledge who teach etc. They will have a more severe judgement than those who are ignorant.

You, a dissenter, are trying to tell me, a still-faithful Latter-day Saint, about "privileged knowledge"? I suppose you sell West Viginia coal in Newcastle, England, too?

Lehi

[erichard]

Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

...

Hi Deborah,

There is the clear possiblity that what was perfect about Noah was his "generations", not himself: "Noah was a just man and PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS."

What does that mean? I think it means that the lineage of Noah back to Adam did not include anyone that was not faithful, or that was not of the seed of Adam.

Nonetheless, I do believe there are scriptures that verify that we can become perfect. And since, through Christ, we can be forgiven of the sins we overcome, then seeking perfection is not a false hope.

Richard

[Deborah]

Does the quote from Genesis mean that you believe you are perfect or can be perfect?

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." If it is impossible to become perfect why did Jesus say this? Of course perfection is a process and we will not become completely perfect in this life. Noah being perfect in his generation means that he had attained what he could in this life and on his own and the rest was up to the Savior.

Our faith in Christ guarantees salvation from eternal judgement as promised

Yet faith without works is dead as already quoted. Faith and works cannot be separated. Note in that same chapter in John those who were born again came to be baptized. Verse 18 doesn't actually say that one is guarnteed salvation; it simply says "He that believeth on him is not condemned." Belief is the first step but not the only step toward salvation. James 2:14 doesn't say anything about the consequences of sin but in fact says "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" meaning that his works are needed with his faith. He then gives the example of what he means:

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[Deborah]

There is the clear possiblity that what was perfect about Noah was his "generations", not himself: "Noah was a just man and PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS."

According to Thomas S Monson there is more to it than that: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1. He speaks of Noah's unwavering obedience.

Of course we also have the example of Job who was described as "perfect and upright" so yes there are many examples that we can and should strive for perfection.

[erichard]

...His Spirit has shown me sufficient evidence in the bible of Him. There is no further need of additional scripture.

...

Hi M2C,

The Bible records these words of Jesus the evening before his final mortal day:

12 I have yet MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself;

but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

--John 16

My faith is that being guided INTO ALL TRUTH requires much, much MORE truth being given by the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Truth) as this promise teaches.

Notice that it was the Holy Ghost that inspired the Bible scriptures:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any

private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but

holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

--2 Peter 1

So if the record of holy men of God speaking as they were moved by the Holy Ghost became the Bible scripture and truth -- and the promise is that the Holy Ghost will guide men of God into ALL TRUTH -- how can one say that the record of the Holy Ghost giving more truth will not also be scripture?

I realize that those who have made religion a business probably are not wanting the Holy Ghost to bring forth more truth, because it may upset things for them.

But the truly faithful should be hungering for the fulfillment of John 16:12-13. Right?

Richard