god is a man

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where in the bible does He say we can become Gods? We are gods, and He will make us complete/perfect, but nowhere in Gods Word does He ever say we can be like Him in the sense that He is the One and Only Creator God Almighty. God is eternal while we are finite. We are under Him. He is under no one but Himself.

Since you have read it and are so versed in the bIble perhaps you can answer it.

Were in the Bible does it say we will be God the Father? No were. It does tell us we will be joint heirs with Christ.

Rev 3:21 reveals quite a nice little bit of what we will be once we are saved.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

So here the verse tells us that we shall sit on Chirsts throne as He ast one His Father's throne. So since Christ's throne = God the Father's throne, then our throne is = to Christ's throne. Its simple math.

Our throne is Gods throne. Tell me what does a throne represent?

Come on I know you can use your logic and figure the plain understanding of the Bible here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Another circular argument with lds and the bible. You are free to believe anything you want about His Word. Your life, your choice. (which I'm sure you'll be "saved" since you do believe and put your trust in Jesus). I hope this is not an irrational prejudice.

His Spirit has shown me sufficient evidence in the bible of Him. There is no further need of additional scripture.

Read Galations! In fact read the entire bible and have faith.

Many people in many cultures have had much less, and God will hold all equally accountable except those of priviledged knowledge who teach etc. They will have a more severe judgement than those who are ignorant.

Im sure you can back up your supposed biblical doctine that the bible is the final and only scripture to be given, and that it conatins all of the words of Christ. Im sure you Bible will be happy to supply us with a verse that backs ups your doctrine.

......

I didnt think so. Your doctine that the Bible is all there is is a false one.

[marnieh]

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." If it is impossible to become perfect why did Jesus say this? Of course perfection is a process and we will not become completely perfect in this life. Noah being perfect in his generation means that he had attained what he could in this life and on his own and the rest was up to the Savior.

Yet faith without works is dead as already quoted. Faith and works cannot be separated. Note in that same chapter in John those who were born again came to be baptized. Verse 18 doesn't actually say that one is guarnteed salvation; it simply says "He that believeth on him is not condemned." Belief is the first step but not the only step toward salvation. James 2:14 doesn't say anything about the consequences of sin but in fact says "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" meaning that his works are needed with his faith. He then gives the example of what he means:

The first part of your post is internally inconsistent, and sort of hard to follow, but I think we agree that we cannot become perfect in this life. Again, I think our beliefs regarding faith and works and what was meant in the Book of James are sort of backwards from each other, but I'm not altogether certain that, effectively, they are all that different. If we are true believers in the Christ of the Bible, Christ our Lord will still obtain works from both of us. Although I disagree that salvation "requires" steps beyond accepting Christ's gift, I would acknowledge that steps will be taken by those who are saved.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Although I disagree that salvation "requires" steps beyond accepting Christ's gift, I would acknowledge that steps will be taken by those who are saved.

The diffrence lies in that you believe that one step is required and that is confessing Jesus. We believe that more than one thing is required to accept Christ gift. A mer confession does nothing. It must becoupled with works, and omong other things Baptism is one of them. I dont see how if some one is a true believier they dont get bapsited. After all faith with out works is dead.

[marnieh]

The diffrence lies in that you believe that one step is required and that is confessing Jesus. We believe that more than one thing is required to accept Christ gift. A mer confession does nothing. It must becoupled with works, and omong other things Baptism is one of them. I dont see how if some one is a true believier they dont get bapsited. After all faith with out works is dead.

A mere confession does nothing? That is a sad statement. And sad that you seem to believe that coming to Christ is such a trivial thing. A "mere" confession does everything! What do you believe the statement "faith without works is dead" means?

[Deborah]

What do you believe the statement "faith without works is dead" means?

What I already quoted above from James:

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

In other words, merely saying something doesn't do it. One has to actually do something.

[Running4HisGlory]

Ether 3:

Exodus 33:

Acts 7:

Where does the Bible show that God is some amorphous being without body, parts or passions?

I think you have to be careful in quoting Exodus 33 because later on in verse 20 God says to Moses, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see my and live." God could have taken a form where all His goodness was not revealed. God can take the form of a pillar of fire, a cloud, a burning bush so He could take the form of a man if He wanted to. But this doesn't necessarily mean that He is a man, was a man or has the shape/form of a man.

[Running4HisGlory]

What I already quoted above from James:

In other words, merely saying something doesn't do it. One has to actually do something.

Since faith is an invisible quality, works are one way to show this. Faith without works doesn't mean that you can't be saved by just faith, otherwise the gospel message would be obselete. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace alone. Romans 8:30 says that our salvation is completely worked out by God, not by anything we do. Romans 4:22-27. There is no boasting, there are no works for salvation. The works come from the Holy Spirit. Once we are filled with the Spirit we live a Spirit filled life, that is when works show our faith. This is shown in Romans 8:9. Even the Israelites in the desert could not be saved by works. There faith was credited to them as righteousness. Same with the patriarchs (Hebrews 11). Also, the High Priest and the Day of Atonement show how much we cannot be saved by our own works, but how we needed Christ to make FULL atonement for our sins.

[littlechild]

i surmise ( but have no way of knowing actually ) that god is light and love and maybe some other qualities i know nothing about. i get the light and love from the bible.

it is enough for me. i find it disturbing that god is a man. harold pinter, the playwright, once wrote a play about a ship at sea and one of the crewman announced he was god and after a few days got everyone to accept it but then he had to use the toilet and the whole thing broke down. a pinter metaphor about religious revelation and

group belief and how it can be persuasive for a time but when grounded to closely to humanity ( god on kolob ) it destructs. why cannot lds be satisfied with god as

love and light if the four basic scriptures do not demand more and put aside the book of abraham and a sermon by a 3rd generation prophet or a church history chapter written one late night in nauvoo. these are not canon are they so why should the canon be so disturbed by these non-canonical musings or is EVERYTHING EVER SAID by js the holy spoken word of god forever and ever ?

I don't see the issue here. If God is our Father, and we are his children, if Christ was His Son, then where's the beef?

Don't children grow up to be like their parents?

[Deborah]

I think you have to be careful in quoting Exodus 33 because later on in verse 20 God says to Moses, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see my and live." God could have taken a form where all His goodness was not revealed. God can take the form of a pillar of fire, a cloud, a burning bush so He could take the form of a man if He wanted to. But this doesn't necessarily mean that He is a man, was a man or has the shape/form of a man.

And yet vs 11 clearly says "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. "

Reading the verses carefully it is true that a man in his natural state cannot see the face of the Lord and live unless there is a change wrought on the man. Moses was transfigured as were Peter, James and John when they saw their great vision. We read in Exodus 34:

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Mosesâ?? hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Mosesâ?? face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Note that the children of Israel were not able to look on Moses face because he was still shining from the encounter with God. But Moses was able to speak to God with the vail removed.

[Deborah]

Look at Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace alone.

What this is saying, and when other scriptures are considered, is what LDS say and that is even after all our works it is the grace of God that saves us. You cannot take one scripture without considering all others that have been written on this. Note it says "For by grace are ye saved through faith" but we read elsewhere that faith without works is dead. So faith and works go hand and hand and you cannot separate them. All our works will avail us nothing if not for grace, yet faith and works are required for the grace of God to have power. If you consider what faith is, it is an active word, not passive. And examples were previously given of what this means.

This is the LDS view on grace:

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

from http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

[Running4HisGlory]

What this is saying, and when other scriptures are considered, is what LDS say and that is even after all our works it is the grace of God that saves us. You cannot take one scripture without considering all others that have been written on this. Note it says "For by grace are ye saved through faith" but we read elsewhere that faith without works is dead. So faith and works go hand and hand and you cannot separate them. All our works will avail us nothing if not for grace, yet faith and works are required for the grace of God to have power. If you consider what faith is, it is an active word, not passive. And examples were previously given of what this means.

This is the LDS view on grace: from http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=w...&sw=checked

I think you should look more carefully at the day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 and how God was setting up a new covenant for His people. Works were not sufficient back then and they are not sufficient for the New Covenant either. I have to go to class soon, I'll respond with more details later. Plus there is a lot of other scripture you are not considering in your interpretation of James and Ephesians.

[Deborah]

Plus there is a lot of other scripture you are not considering in your interpretation of James and Ephesians.

I doubt it since I'm familiar with both old and new testaments and have the advantage of modern scripture and revelation.

[Tarski]

We consider our God be a/the Creator.

An original creator of man and his form? Or more like a copier handing down an eternal pattern of which his is part like a link in a chain?

[Running4HisGlory]

I doubt it since I'm familiar with both old and new testaments and have the advantage of modern scripture and revelation.

Genesis 1-3: God created Adam and Eve in His image, but they chose to disobey Him, acquired the knowledge of evil, were evicted from paradise, and alienated from God.

Exodus 20- The Law: The 10 commandments reflect the character of God, identify our greatest struggles while demonstrating our need for Jesus Christ, and gives us direction for God's new life, lived in power of God's Spirit.

Exodus 32: The people are disobedient and build a gold calf.

Exodus 33: V. 33 God temporarily leaves His people until the tabernacle is finished with the Holy of Holies so God can dwell among His people.

Exodus 40: God comes back and dwells among his people in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle.

Leviticus 16: The Day of Atonement. It came once a year where the high priest would offer a sacrifice for himself and the all the people. A bull for himself and a goat for the people. He would place his hands on the goats head and confess over it all the sins of the Israelites and put them on the goat. Then someone would take the goat into the desert and it carried the sins of the people. (Lev. 16 20-22). This sacrifice was temporary and had to be reoccurring every year by only the High Priest, because no one else could enter the Holy of Holies. So access to God was restricted. And works were not considered sufficient since this sacrifice had to be made every year.

Hebrews 7: 22-28: Obviously, the New Covenant came and Jesus Christ is now the eternal sacrifice, we will never need another sacrifice again. We will never need another High Priest because Jesus lives forever and is constantly interceding for us, just like Aaron the high priest interceded for the Israelites by sacrificing in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle. The high priests had to continually make sacrifices because they were not perfect like Jesus is perfect, so that is why Jesus can forever be our sacrifice and also why He is God the Son; he is perfect. Also read Hebrews 9:11-15.

Mark 15:38: The temple of the curtain (between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies where only the high priest could go) was torn and now all may have access to God through Jesus Christ. Not by anything we have done, but by the sacrifice of Jesus.

This day of atonement was set up for God to show us what Jesus is doing for us. The priest was not supposed to bring in the tears of people to pour on the altar to show how sorry they were, he wasnâ??t supposed to bring rags of sweat to show how hard we have worked to please God. He brought blood to sprinkle on the altar (Leviticus 16). The sacrificial system is Godâ??s greatest visual aid to us to show His plan of salvation. Atonement canâ??t be achieved through our means, only the shedding of blood. In the Old Testament times the blood of a goat or bull could momentarily[/u] cover up sin, but now the blood of Jesus forever covers our sin because Jesus is continually interceding for us as a high priest that lives forever.

We shouldnâ??t be asking â??what can we do to make our relationship right with God?â? We should see that God has already given us a way to come to a perfect relationship with Him, that way is Jesus Christ. So I just donâ??t see how the view that the LDS holds (Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts) can be true.

[Zakuska]

hello: a serious question. where in the bom, d&c or pogp does it clearly state that god is a man ?

You silly... the Bible clearly states that God is a man.

Ex. 15: 3

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

[Zakuska]

We shouldn't be asking "what can we do to make our relationship right with God?" We should see that God has already given us a way to come to a perfect relationship with Him, that way is Jesus Christ. So I just don't see how the view that the LDS holds (Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts) can be true.

!!! HERESY ALERT !!!

2 Cor. 13: 5

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Paul was all about examining (ie asking ourself) what we can DO to make our relationship right with God and with our fellow man.

[Running4HisGlory]

!!! HERESY ALERT !!!

2 Cor. 13: 5

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Paul was all about examining (ie asking ourself) what we can DO to make our relationship right with God and with our fellow man.

I'm talking about salvation. Obviously, we should try to be holy as God is holy, but we can't do it ourselves. I should've clarified. Without Jesus' sacrifice we would never be able to have a perfect relationship with God.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A mere confession does nothing? That is a sad statement. And sad that you seem to believe that coming to Christ is such a trivial thing. A "mere" confession does everything! What do you believe the statement "faith without works is dead" means?

So if I beat my why and Confess Jesus that I have sinned and I keep beating her, am I know saved? Or do I need to actually change and stop beating her? Which is? Can I keep steeling things from the store after I have confessed Jesus? Do I need to change?

[Tanyan]

hello: a serious question. where in the bom, d&c or pogp does it clearly state that god is a man ?

In the original 1611 KJV Bible for Mark 10:18 it states - And Iesus said vnto him, why callest me good ?,There is no man good, but one, that is God. Sorry I used the Holy Bible.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

I'm talking about salvation. Obviously, we should try to be holy as God is holy, but we can't do it ourselves. I should've clarified. Without Jesus' sacrifice we would never be able to have a perfect relationship with God.

That is 100 % LDS DOCTRINE . AMEN and AMEN !.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Since faith is an invisible quality, works are one way to show this. Faith without works doesn't mean that you can't be saved by just faith, otherwise the gospel message would be obselete. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace alone. Romans 8:30 says that our salvation is completely worked out by God, not by anything we do. Romans 4:22-27. There is no boasting, there are no works for salvation. The works come from the Holy Spirit. Once we are filled with the Spirit we live a Spirit filled life, that is when works show our faith. This is shown in Romans 8:9. Even the Israelites in the desert could not be saved by works. There faith was credited to them as righteousness. Same with the patriarchs (Hebrews 11). Also, the High Priest and the Day of Atonement show how much we cannot be saved by our own works, but how we needed Christ to make FULL atonement for our sins.

We are Saved by Charis [Grace alone] through Pistis [Faith] alone. Pistis is a Faith power in action word. We need to access and make that Charis Atonement active and alive in us by way of keeping the commandments out of Love for GOD The Father His Son Jesus Christ and for our fellow man.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

So if I beat my why and Confess Jesus that I have sinned and I keep beating her, am I know saved? Or do I need to actually change and stop beating her? Which is? Can I keep steeling things from the store after I have confessed Jesus? Do I need to change?

A non LDS Christian look/view of the sinners prayer - http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm