Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 MatthewGMen and women are not literally the sons and daughters of heavenly parents. Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God. The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual.Johnny-- one verse of scripture from the Bible that supports the Catholic view of soul-Creationism, please. And the last sentence, if human person is created in the image of God and is a being at once corporeal and spiritual--- then why isn't God "at once corporeal and spiritual"?
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetJohnny-- one verse of scripture from the Bible that supports the Catholic view of soul-Creationism, please.Below are a couple of verses;Zech.12 ([1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.)-Gen.2 ([7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. )And the last sentence, if human person is created in the image of God and is a being at once corporeal and spiritual--- then why isn't God "at once corporeal and spiritual"?Because God is the creator and men are his creation.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetBelow are a couple of verses;Zech.12 ([1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.)-This verse, in Zech. 12, simply says that God "formeth the spirit of man within him." It never says when, and the context of the verse is simply to stress God's might and omnipotence at the opening of a revelation given to Zechariah concerning the cursings to be poured forth on Judah.Gen.2 ([7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. )This verse is talking about the creation of Adam, a specific event. Although I believe this verse is almost entirely metaphorical or an obscured view of what occured, (I don't believe Adam was an adobe), it speaks of God first forming man of the dust, and then breathing into his nostrils. Unless you want to argue that God forms everyone from dirt, and then breathes into the nostrils the breath of life, I don't think you can use this verse to imply anything universal that applies to mankind beyond this specific creation event.Because God is the creator and men are his creation.This gets back to the whole notion of who God is, and our 180 views. But this statement strikes me as nothing more than just an assertion, and not really an explanation.
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetThis verse, in Zech. 12, simply says that God "formeth the spirit of man within him." It never says when, and the context of the verse is simply to stress God's might and omnipotence at the opening of a revelation given to Zechariah concerning the cursings to be poured forth on Judah.The "when" is after the corporeal body is formed because it says "within him". When God created Adam, first he formed the body from the earth.This verse is talking about the creation of Adam, a specific event. Although I believe this verse is almost entirely metaphorical or an obscured view of what occured, (I don't believe Adam was an adobe), it speaks of God first forming man of the dust, and then breathing into his nostrils.From the story of Adam is evident that Adam wasn't born of heavenly parents and that he became a living soul after his body was formed.This gets back to the whole notion of who God is, and our 180 views. But this statement strikes me as nothing more than just an assertion, and not really an explanation.It is an assertion that is backed up by scriptures, Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)-Gen.1 ([1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. )-2Cor.5 ([17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.)
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 The "when" is after the corporeal body is formed because it says "within him".Or it could be read more simply, God forms the spirit of man, which spirit is within him. There's no indication from it that that verse reads: God, forming the spirit of man, does this action within him after the corporeal body, which is what you seem to be proposing. When God created Adam, first he formed the body from the earth.From the story of Adam is evident that Adam wasn't born of heavenly parents and that he became a living soul after his body was formed.I thought the Catholic Church's doublespeak backed up evolution and the Big Bang fully? You now telling me it doesn't?It is an assertion that is backed up by scriptures, Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)-Gen.1 ([1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. )-2Cor.5 ([17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.)So is the creation of man exactly like the creation of planets? Is that last creation in 2 Cor. 5 that you quote, exactly like the creation of whales? It seems to me "creation" can mean a great many things.
Sentinus Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 I think you dont understand a plain and simple reading of the text.If your interpretation agrees with Deb then I could say the same. Regards,Sentinus Amen!
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetOr it could be read more simply, God forms the spirit of man, which spirit is within him. There's no indication from it that that verse reads: God, forming the spirit of man, does this action within him after the corporeal body, which is what you seem to be proposing.The point is that God forms the spirit of man, other verses say the soul is made, see belowIsa.57 ([16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made)I thought the Catholic Church's doublespeak backed up evolution and the Big Bang fully? You now telling me it doesn't?The Catholic Church teaches:362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.-366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.So is the creation of man exactly like the creation of planets? Is that last creation in 2 Cor. 5 that you quote, exactly like the creation of whales? It seems to me "creation" can mean a great many things.These verses indicates that in "creation" God creates through a command, the second century Christian Bishop Irenaeus wrote:Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1). "Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetThe point is that God forms the spirit of man, other verses say the soul is made, see belowIsa.57 ([16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made)But when? Where does it say in scriptures that the soul is created at conception?The Catholic Church teaches:362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.-366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.Like I think what the Catholic Church teaches is true? Plus, the Early Church Fathers and all Orthodox and Miaphysite Christians believe in Traducianism. Why should I not take the Orthodox and the non-Chalcedonians over what Catholics teach, or why not just dismiss both, as having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof?These verses indicates that in "creation" God creates through a command, the second century Christian Bishop Irenaeus wrote:Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1). "Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).That just goes to show that Irenaeus was familiar with Aristotle and that he believed in Aristotle's god.
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetBut when? Where does it say in scriptures that the soul is created at conception?What scripture do you know of that would support that it is not at conception?In Mormon theology is man's spirit formed before he becomes a living soul?Like I think what the Catholic Church teaches is true?I am simply showing what the Catholic Church teaches. Early you asked about asked about "evolution and the Big Bang".That just goes to show that Irenaeus was familiar with Aristotle and that he believed in Aristotle's god.Irenaeus was way before Aristotle. Irenaeus was a second-century bishop. Irenaeus had a personal link with the generation of the apostles through his mentor Polycarp.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetWhat scripture do you know of that would support that it is not at conception?"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5In Mormon theology is man's spirit formed before he becomes a living soul?Yes, that's in Gospel Principles, Chapter 2. I'm sure you have a copy since you quote from it often. Also type in "antemortal existence of man" at LDS.orgI am simply showing what the Catholic Church teaches. Early you asked about asked about "evolution and the Big Bang".I just don't see how you can support that verse in Genesis as literal and have a Church that fully teaches evolution and the Big Bang fairly unqualified.Irenaeus was way before Aristotle. Irenaeus was a second-century bishop.Uhm, no.
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Notquitewetyet"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5Jeremiah 1:5 reveals that God has foreknowledge, it does not reveal when the soul is formed.Yes, that's in Gospel Principles, Chapter 2. I'm sure you have a copy since you quote from it often. Also type in "antemortal existence of man" at LDS.orgYou say "Yes" that a man's spirit is formed. What do you mean by formed? For example when was Adam's spirit formed if he was Michael the angel before becoming Adam?Uhm, no.You are correct ...I was thinking of someone else ...
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetJeremiah 1:5 reveals that God has foreknowledge, it does not reveal when the soul is formed.That's the only Bible verse you or I have brought up that has any temporality to it. So it seems to me like the Bible is not clear on this point, and you adhere to Catholic tradition as complementary to scripture, and I adhere to latter-day revelation.You say "Yes" that a man's spirit is formed. What do you mean by formed? For example when was Adam's spirit formed if he was Michael the angel before becoming Adam?Yes, Adam was Michael, and had a whole existence. When He came to this earth, He voluntarily took a veil over His mind, and that veil is now gone for Him. But most Mormons view our cosmic evolution like this (and I pretty much concur):intelligence ----> spirit -----> (spirit + mortal flesh) =living soul ---> (resurrection & exaltation) = god ---> more?And the intelligence is coeval with God.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Johnny = thread killer.I actually find soul-Creationism, Traducianism, and Preexistence to be fascinating. But it's my fault for derailing the thread. Sorry.
johnny Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetThat's the only Bible verse you or I have brought up that has any temporality to it. So it seems to me like the Bible is not clear on this point, and you adhere to Catholic tradition as complementary to scripture, and I adhere to latter-day revelation.I would adhere to apostolic tradition since this is what the Bible reveals.Yes, Adam was Michael, and had a whole existence ... intelligence ----> spiritSo was Michael the spirit formed, scripture reveals the spirit is formed.
Notquitewetyet Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 NotquitewetyetI would adhere to apostolic tradition since this is what the Bible reveals.The apostolic tradition that supports traducianism?So was Michael the spirit formed, scripture reveals the spirit is formed.Michael, at some point, was an intelligence who was born a spirit child. That is how Mormons view "spirit formation."
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Coming back to the OP. Last night the missionaries paid me a visit, and I asked them what LDS scripture they would use (other than the Bible) for this question. They suggested D&C 130:22.I would say that does it.
johnny Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 NotquitewetyetMichael, at some point, was an intelligence who was born a spirit child. That is how Mormons view "spirit formation."For me the Mormon view of "spirit formation" does not fit with scripture. Since we are getting off-topic I replied at the following thread.Where to spirit children come from?http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208581916
Aquilifer Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I actually find soul-Creationism, Traducianism, and Preexistence to be fascinating. But it's my fault for derailing the thread. Sorry.At the risk of continuing the derailment, I suspect you'll enjoy the next project from Terryl Givens.
kryoung1983 Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 At the risk of continuing the derailment, I suspect you'll enjoy the next project from Terryl Givens.I love Terry L. Givens....
Aquilifer Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I love Terry L. Givens....Technically, it's Terryl L. Givens. (sorry, not sure if you're trying to correct my spelling of his name)
Notquitewetyet Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 At the risk of continuing the derailment, I suspect you'll enjoy the next project from Terryl Givens.Oh my goodness. I saw him speak at my university last winter, and I was just blown away by the intellectual light he used to look at the Gospel. This will be a must have.
Cold Steel Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Where in the bom, d&c or pogp does it clearly state that god is a man?God is not a man. God is an inclusive term for beings who attain it. If you are a joint heir with Christ and gain eternal life, you become One with God. In short, you are no longer a man. This is clearly stated in Doctrine & Covenants 76. In a real sense you are not only "a" god, but you are God and you will dwell with God.
Mormon2Christian Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 To the original question...Mormons are not the only ones that think that man can become God, if you look in the catechism it is noting that man can become God, I will look it up and post it in a little bit.Here it is (maybe the Catholics have some additionally reasoning on this doctrine):http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...t2art3.shtml#p1The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81Where in the bible does He say we can become Gods? We are gods, and He will make us complete/perfect, but nowhere in Gods Word does He ever say we can be like Him in the sense that He is the One and Only Creator God Almighty. God is eternal while we are finite. We are under Him. He is under no one but Himself.
Mormon2Christian Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 God is not a man. God is an inclusive term for beings who attain it. If you are a joint heir with Christ and gain eternal life, you become One with God. In short, you are no longer a man. This is clearly stated in Doctrine & Covenants 76. In a real sense you are not only "a" god, but you are God and you will dwell with God.I am beginning to understand this. However, I think Traditional Christians have a different understanding than Mormons of what it means to be One with God. It is still a mystery to me. The Spirit is helping me understand what He has already revealed to us. He is continually illuminating more of His revealed will in my life.
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