Promised Land Seminars

[Bennion Curio]

None of these events are in my neck of the woods, but I'd love to know what their presentation entails.

http://www.thefirmfoundationonline.org/ind...ge=seminars.php

There are many of these scheduled for this winter and spring in UT, ID, CA and AZ, so if anyone attends, please return and report!

By the way, FIRM?. Another foundation with a feel-good acronym? Can they all just get along?

[cinepro]

It's the "FIRM Foundation" Get it...?

I suspect they will have great success with people who want to go on a Book of Mormon tour but don't have a passport.

[Joseph Antley]

Eh, maybe. Depends who the lecturer is.

[katherine the great]

Is this a promotion of "Book of Mormon" tours? If so no, I won't be attending.

[cinepro]

Is this a promotion of "Book of Mormon" tours? If so no, I won't be attending.

No, it's Rodney Meldrum's gig. They do tours, but I'm sure the seminars will be his presentation/fireside on why the Book of Mormon events took place in North America.

[livy111us]

I would HIGHLY discourage you from attending. Rodney Meldrums work has MANY flaws, and half-truths in it. It is a very inaccurate presentation of Book of Mormon events/geography, and should not be taken as any sort of scholarship.

FAIR has written an extensive review of his material which can be found here:

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...rmon_Geography/

He misuses science, history, and archaeology in an attempt to prove his point. I don't really care where the Book of Mormon took place, but do think we should use sound scholarship when researching this important topic. Personally, I think there were BOM peoples that migrated 'northward' to the Great Lakes area, and therefore agree to a limited point with Meldrum. But again, we need to be accurate in our research. I haven't spoken with him for a while and *hope* he has changed, but haven't seen it yet.

Anyway, read the review and come to a conclusion yourself.

[cinepro]

Anyway, read the review and come to a conclusion yourself.

Didn't you mean to say "Go to the presentation, hear what Brother Meldrum has to say, and come to a conclusion yourself"? Wouldn't want to go to a Ford dealer to find out about a Chevy, would I?

[livy111us]

I'm assuming they are familiar with his DVD's.

[The Dude]

I just think it is fascinating that someone can read the Book of Mormon through the lens of North American geography, or even total hemispheric geography, and find all kinds of internal and external evidences that that's where it happened. It's something like a Rorschach test.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the hearts and minds of the Saints.

[Bennion Curio]

A portion of their mission statement:

The FIRM Foundation combines research from multiple disciplines to provide supporting evidence for the Book of Mormon, through DNA, prophetic, scriptural, historical, climatological, archaeological, social and cultural evidences. These evidences combine to show the wisdom of The Prophet, Joseph Smith, and the validity of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

The suggestion, at least, is that there is lots and lots of North American evidence, including DNA!

[John Larsen]

He misuses science, history, and archaeology in an attempt to prove his point. I don't really care where the Book of Mormon took place, but do think we should use sound scholarship when researching this important topic.

I don't know, but there is just something about this statement.....

[livy111us]

A portion of their mission statement:

The suggestion, at least, is that there is lots and lots of North American evidence, including DNA!

That is where the twisting of science comes into play. You can read about his mistakes here: http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...y/DEBMG01F.html

I know several geneticists who think Melrums views are wrong. He is not a geneticist, has had no formal training in genetics, but attempts to interpret population genetics. So actual scholars in this field say he is wrong, but he is still teaching it.

I think LDS Geneticist Michael Whiting puts it best when he said "Good science does not consist of someone dreaming up a pet theory and then quilting together pieces of evidence to support it from as many disparate sources as possible while conveniently ignoring pieces of evidence that may undercut the theory." Michael Whiting

Meldrum started with a theory, and then twisted evidence to fit that theory.

A recent study about the haplotype which he attempts to show to be from Israel says that it actually came across the Bering Strait. "Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis." http://www.ajhg.org/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00139-0#

Again, I have no problem if he is right, but evidence just does not support his position. I disagree with his tactics, and use of information, as well as the defamation of actual scholars. I think if he approached it without putting everyone else down, researched the pros and cons of both major theories, and didn't twist any information (lie, distort, or manipulate), he would be taken much more seriously and actually have a case. The best thing he's got going for him is his marketing skills. He has a history in sales, and a very good salesman, and can/has convinced many people who do not know any better.

Again, I'd suggest reading FAIRs review of his work for answers to any claims he makes in his DVD's and firesides.

[The Dude]

I think LDS Geneticist Michael Whiting puts it best when he said "Good science does not consist of someone dreaming up a pet theory and then quilting together pieces of evidence to support it from as many disparate sources as possible while conveniently ignoring pieces of evidence that may undercut the theory." Michael Whiting

Meldrum started with a theory, and then twisted evidence to fit that theory.

I like that quote from Dr. Whiting so much that I've put it in my signature line along with Dr. Clark.

But you know, maybe Meldrum isn't doing science and he knows it. He's doing apologetics, and here a background in sales is probably better than one in scholarship. Like I said, it is interesting to watch this play out.

[cinepro]

That is where the twisting of science comes into play. You can read about his mistakes here: http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...y/DEBMG01F.html

Stop peddling your anti-Meldrum claptrap here. Meldrum scholars have answered those tired accusations over and over, but anti-Meldrums keep bringing them up. Meldrum must be right, or he wouldn't be being attacked by the apologetic-industrial-complex. He's just trying to build people's belief in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but people are tearing him down. Stop trying to tear down someone's beliefs.

[katherine the great]

That is where the twisting of science comes into play. You can read about his mistakes here: http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...y/DEBMG01F.html

I know several geneticists who think Melrums views are wrong. He is not a geneticist, has had no formal training in genetics, but attempts to interpret population genetics. So actual scholars in this field say he is wrong, but he is still teaching it.

I think LDS Geneticist Michael Whiting puts it best when he said "Good science does not consist of someone dreaming up a pet theory and then quilting together pieces of evidence to support it from as many disparate sources as possible while conveniently ignoring pieces of evidence that may undercut the theory." Michael Whiting

Meldrum started with a theory, and then twisted evidence to fit that theory.

A recent study about the haplotype which he attempts to show to be from Israel says that it actually came across the Bering Strait. "Our results strongly support the hypothesis that haplogroup X, together with the other four main mtDNA haplogroups, was part of the gene pool of a single Native American founding population; therefore they do not support models that propose haplogroup-independent migrations, such as the migration from Europe posed by the Solutrean hypothesis." http://www.ajhg.org/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00139-0#

Again, I have no problem if he is right, but evidence just does not support his position. I disagree with his tactics, and use of information, as well as the defamation of actual scholars. I think if he approached it without putting everyone else down, researched the pros and cons of both major theories, and didn't twist any information (lie, distort, or manipulate), he would be taken much more seriously and actually have a case. The best thing he's got going for him is his marketing skills. He has a history in sales, and a very good salesman, and can/has convinced many people who do not know any better.

Again, I'd suggest reading FAIRs review of his work for answers to any claims he makes in his DVD's and firesides.

Doh! I like the Solutrean hypothesis. I don't think it has anything to do with the Book of Mormon though. Its thousands of years off!

[John Larsen]

Stop peddling your anti-Meldrum claptrap here. Meldrum scholars have answered those tired accusations over and over, but anti-Meldrums keep bringing them up. Meldrum must be right, or he wouldn't be being attacked by the apologetic-industrial-complex. He's just trying to build people's belief in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but people are tearing him down. Stop trying to tear down someone's beliefs.

I think the persecution heaped upon Meldrum by the antis might point to the fact that he may be right. You know, in the last days the very elect will be deceived and the righteous will always be persecuted by the wicked.

[juliann]

I think the persecution heaped upon Meldrum by the antis might point to the fact that he may be right. You know, in the last days the very elect will be deceived and the righteous will always be persecuted by the wicked.

Ah, a Meldrum supporter. I can tell because only Meldrum claims in salvation by geography.

Cute threadjack though.

[cinepro]

Ah, a Meldrum supporter. I can tell because only Meldrum claims in salvation by geography.

Cute threadjack though.

Is salvation by geography really so different from salvation by historicity?

The most interesting question in all this is why Brother Meldrum even feels a need to present an alternate hypothesis to that promoted by the Maxwell Institute. What was the thought process that got him to where he is, and are the people that support him even aware of the mesoamerican theories? And if so, why are they drawn to Br. Meldrum?

[John Larsen]

Ah, a Meldrum supporter. I can tell because only Meldrum claims in salvation by geography.

Cute threadjack though.

I support him in as much as his form of apologetics is as good as any other.

[juliann]

I support him in as much as his form of apologetics is as good as any other.

Then you have no interest in mainstream scholarship...or you are one of those who simply labels whatever he doesn't agree with as "apologetics" to avoid academic pursuit....something I hadn't associated you with prior to your support of a dishonest use of sources.

[livy111us]

Stop peddling your anti-Meldrum claptrap here. Meldrum scholars have answered those tired accusations over and over, but anti-Meldrums keep bringing them up. Meldrum must be right, or he wouldn't be being attacked by the apologetic-industrial-complex. He's just trying to build people's belief in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but people are tearing him down. Stop trying to tear down someone's beliefs.

Meldrum has not answered any accusations by FAIR other than saying that they are persecuting him. He has said over and over that he was releasing something that answers FAIRs article, but instead, just used the "I'm being picked" on card. He cannot release anything against it, because FAIR caught him in his mis-representations, lies, and bad scholarship. There is not much one can say about that.

Also, how does writing a review, exposing bad scholarship, make that person right? If that is the case, then that means the ones that were wrong concerning the universe, science, medicine, etc... who were corrected later by accurate scholars, were actually right. That bleeding out was correct, the sun revolving around the earth, etc.... That is a very lame argument to make.

[John Larsen]

Then you have no interest in mainstream scholarship...or you are one of those who simply labels whatever he doesn't agree with as "apologetics" to avoid academic pursuit....something I hadn't associated you with prior to your support of a dishonest use of sources.

"Support of dishonest use of sources"--I have no idea what you are talking about. I think Meldrum's theory are exactly as likely, and as justified as the LGT or any other Book of Mormon theory. The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and never occurred in the Americas or anywhere else.

I have made my stance on apologetics clear in the past, by its nature it is not scientific, critical or logical and cannot be used to arrive at any scientific, critical or logical conclusion. My point is that Meldrum is using apologetic effectively to arrive at his predefined conclusions. In that sense, his apologetics is just as methodical as any other apologetics.

I should point out. There is some real science out there that is labeled as apologetics, but that is a misnomer. If is is science, it is science.

[cinepro]

Then you have no interest in mainstream scholarship...or you are one of those who simply labels whatever he doesn't agree with as "apologetics" to avoid academic pursuit....something I hadn't associated you with prior to your support of a dishonest use of sources.

Let me get this straight. Are you really referring to contributors to the Maxwell Institute as "mainstream scholars"? If that's the case, the stream of mesoamerican and Egyptian scholarship must be much smaller than I imagined.

[juliann]

"Support of dishonest use of sources"--I have no idea what you are talking about.

Then you are engaging in cheap shots. When you read what Meldrum puts out then we can discuss it...in an academic manner. It is more than telling when no one who wants to use this to take swipes at Mormons will actually discuss what Meldrum does with sources.

[juliann]

Let me get this straight. Are you really referring to contributors to the Maxwell Institute as "mainstream scholars"? If that's the case, the stream of mesoamerican and Egyptian scholarship must be much smaller than I imagined.

Then make your case. Start here:

The following organizations have partnership agreements with FARMS [now Maxwell Institute] :

The Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation

The Vatican Apostolic Library

The Israel Antiquities Authority

The National Library of Naples

The Society of Biblical Literature

The Martin-Buber-Institut f