Promised Land Seminars

[The Dude]

deleted

[John Larsen]

Then make your case. Start here:

I you trying to argue that since these organizations have collaborated with FARMS on their non-Apologetic work that somehow gives credence to FARMS apologetics? Please.

[Brant Gardner]

Let me get this straight. Are you really referring to contributors to the Maxwell Institute as "mainstream scholars"? If that's the case, the stream of mesoamerican and Egyptian scholarship must be much smaller than I imagined.

Please make your case that John Clark is not a mainstream Mesoamericanist. I will be very interested in your reasoning. The very large number of Mesoamericanists who quote him will be very disappointed.

[cinepro]

Then make your case. Start here:

The Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation

The Vatican Apostolic Library

The Israel Antiquities Authority

The National Library of Naples

The Society of Biblical Literature

The Martin-Buber-Institut f

[ryanelwood]

I asked if they knew of any scholarship that supports the contention that there were cultures in the Americas between 600BC and 400AD that kept the Law of Moses, and believed in Jesus Christ, or that Abraham of the Bible lived in Egypt as a youth, and left writings that were later recovered.

Don't forget to ask if they have knowledge concerning prophecies of a choice seer like unto Moses that would come forth that would be named Joseph after his father. I know that would be an odd question, but I am always amused by Joseph's boldness of placing prophecies about himself in the Book of Mormon and the "inspired" version of the bible.

[Brant Gardner]

I asked for references to any scholarship that they would consider "mainstream" that discusses these books in a positive manner, and supports their claims to historicity.

So your definition of "mainstream" has nothing to do with the scholar, their reputation, or academic standing. Your definition is topic.

Right. So FARMS has a large number of mainstream scholars in their academic fields but none of them are mainstream if they write on Mormon topics.

That appears to be strange definition of "mainstream." Would you clarify, please?

[sethpayne]

I would HIGHLY discourage you from attending. Rodney Meldrums work has MANY flaws, and half-truths in it. It is a very inaccurate presentation of Book of Mormon events/geography, and should not be taken as any sort of scholarship.

FAIR has written an extensive review of his material which can be found here:

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...rmon_Geography/

He misuses science, history, and archaeology in an attempt to prove his point. I don't really care where the Book of Mormon took place, but do think we should use sound scholarship when researching this important topic. Personally, I think there were BOM peoples that migrated 'northward' to the Great Lakes area, and therefore agree to a limited point with Meldrum. But again, we need to be accurate in our research. I haven't spoken with him for a while and *hope* he has changed, but haven't seen it yet.

Anyway, read the review and come to a conclusion yourself.

Hmm.... sounds like the same type of criticism used against other BOM geography theorists.

[sethpayne]

"Support of dishonest use of sources"--I have no idea what you are talking about. I think Meldrum's theory are exactly as likely, and as justified as the LGT or any other Book of Mormon theory. The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and never occurred in the Americas or anywhere else.

I have made my stance on apologetics clear in the past, by its nature it is not scientific, critical or logical and cannot be used to arrive at any scientific, critical or logical conclusion. My point is that Meldrum is using apologetic effectively to arrive at his predefined conclusions. In that sense, his apologetics is just as methodical as any other apologetics.

I should point out. There is some real science out there that is labeled as apologetics, but that is a misnomer. If is is science, it is science.

Amen, and Amen.

[John Larsen]

Most of those websites don't have search functions, so I had to email them directly.

I asked if they were familiar with any scholarly study of the Book of Mormon peoples (specifically the Jaredites, Nephites, or Lamanites), or of the Book of Abraham which was translated from the papyrus that came into the possession of Joseph Smith in the 1830's.

I asked for references to any scholarship that they would consider "mainstream" that discusses these books in a positive manner, and supports their claims to historicity. I asked if they knew of any scholarship that supports the contention that there were cultures in the Americas between 600BC and 400AD that kept the Law of Moses, and believed in Jesus Christ, or that Abraham of the Bible lived in Egypt as a youth, and left writings that were later recovered.

I'll let you know if I get any responses, and if I have permission, I'll share them in this thread.

IRL emailing to gain information is acceptable. IRL emailing to stick it to Mormons is not. Mod

You can be banned for things you do off the board? Where does Cinepro say that it is doing this to "stick it to Mormons"? Completely unwarranted.

This is obviously a list of institutions who work with Mormon scholars "]If posters use information on the board to embarrass or shame Mormons IRL they will be banned. When you run your own board you can determine what is warranted. Further comments will be deleted. Mod

[LifeOnaPlate]

Amen, and Amen.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Meldrum's theory and research compared with Sorenson's or Larry Poulson's. If you find them just as plausible I can only charitably say you must be unfamiliar with the claims of each.

Take a look at Sorenson's internal map based on what the Book of Mormon itself says. Look at what he's done and then look at what Meldrum has done. To posit the two as equally plausible (in my view having read them) is remarkably foolhardy.

[The Dude]

Then you are completely unfamiliar with Meldrum's theory and reasons....

I forget, does Meldrum believe in a hemispheric geography or a limited one centered around the great lakes and upstate New York? From his DNA speculation, does he think the great Mesoamerican civilizations were BoM people or descendants of Siberian aboriginals?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I forget, does Meldrum believe in a hemispheric geography or a limited one centered around the great lakes and upstate New York? From his DNA speculation, does he think the great Mesoamerican civilizations were BoM people or descendants of Siberian aboriginals?

You forget?

[The Dude]

You forget?

Or maybe I was never clear on this aspect of Meldrum.

[sethpayne]

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Meldrum's theory and research compared with Sorenson's or Larry Poulson's. If you find them just as plausible I can only charitably say you must be unfamiliar with the claims of each.

Take a look at Sorenson's internal map based on what the Book of Mormon itself says. Look at what he's done and then look at what Meldrum has done. To posit the two as equally plausible (in my view having read them) is remarkably foolhardy.

I agree. The academic credentials of proponents of the Limited Geography Model dwarf those of Meldrum. No argument from me there.

I am certainly no expert in this area. I have read Sorenson and am generally familiar with the Limited Geography - Mesoamerican model.

In my view, Meldrum has much stronger support for BOM geography from the words of Joseph Smith and I think that if he were to argue simply that Joseph Smith believed the BoM occurred in the NY/Great Lakes area then I think he would have an excellent case -- the Zelph reference in addition to Joseph's letter to Emma are pretty strong evidence of Joseph's views (although I am familiar that Joseph referred to Zarahemla indirectly via Times and Seasons).

Scientifically, it seems like the Limited Geography model is much stronger. However, in my extremely uninformed opinion both models have scientific problems -- although like I said, I'm not expert and I don't feel qualified offer any substantive critique of anything regarding ancient cultures.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I agree. The academic credentials of proponents of the Limited Geography Model dwarf those of Meldrum. No argument from me there.

For me it isn't about the credentials. It's about the assumptions, questions asked, evidence interpreted, models created, etc. that make the important difference.

In my view, Meldrum has much stronger support for BOM geography from the words of Joseph Smith and I think that if he were to argue simply that Joseph Smith believed the BoM occurred in the NY/Great Lakes area then I think he would have an excellent case -- the Zelph reference in addition to Joseph's letter to Emma are pretty strong evidence of Joseph's views (although I am familiar that Joseph referred to Zarahemla indirectly via Times and Seasons).

I disagree that he has stronger support from Joseph Smith. (Even before that, however, I don't believe JS's opinions of the book invariably outweigh what the book itself says). His selective quotations, etc. are calculated to stack the deck. FAIR's response covers this in detail.

Scientifically, it seems like the Limited Geography model is much stronger. However, in my extremely uninformed opinion both models have scientific problems -- although like I said, I'm not expert and I don't feel qualified offer any substantive critique of anything regarding ancient cultures.

I suggest beginning with Sorenson's "Mormon's Map," and also checking Hamblin's unfortunately titled "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon."

[livy111us]

Joseph Smith did not exclusively teach a North American model for the BOM, but he taught several times that it happened in Mesoamerica. So either he had an evolving theory that changed as he gained more knowledge of culture and geography of both The Book of Mormon and the Americas, or he was right all along and there were northward migrations from Mesoamerica up to the Great Lakes area (however, this doesn't answer the teachings that the Lehites landed in South America, more specifically, Chile). Who knows. But if one is to rely on Joseph Smiths words alone, it becomes a great problem for North American theorists, especially since he ended on a very strong Mesoamerican note.

You can read more about JS words and Meldrums twisting of them here:

http://www.fairlds.org/DNA_Evidence_for_Bo...y/DEBMG03F.html

and these are very interesting articles as well:

http://en.fairmormon.org/FAIRwiki:Table_of...tents#Geography