If You Received An Answer...

[Deborah]

It seems you (and Deborah) would use the Bible (Luke 24) to undo the Bible. You suppose the Bible gives you an unfailing means to detecting the truth--your heart burning with in you.

And yet you are the one using the Bible to contradict the Bible.

[Deborah]

And perhaps the the further light and knowledge will be\ far beyond the Mormon mundane belief.

I've never heard Mormon belief described as mundane. That's a new one given that mundane means "common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative." Critics have accused Joseph Smith of having a vivid imagination and our beliefs certainly are out of the ordinary according to most non LDS. I think you are trying to appear witty but, sorry my dear, you fall far short.

My question to those like Verdad and Ulysses is why do you think so many who saw Jesus face to face and spoke to him still did not see who he really was? There he was in person giving his word straight with no third party interpretation and yet there were those who still did not understand or recognize him as the Son of God; obviously there is something more involved than just reading the word or even hearing it.

[bluebell]

Perhaps you have misunderstood the response that your received. Funny that so many, many others have gotten the absolute opposite response. Perhaps you are anticipating the response that you expect to receive and therefore getting the answer that you want to get. Not unusual. Rather a typical false positive. You might want to consider it.

I don't worry about the responses that other people have gotten-and i would suppose that you don't either, since you aren't muslim, buddist, hindu or jewish, for example.

Jesus Himself said that the road to Him was narrow and few would find it. If there have been many many others who don't agree with mormonism, that would be a pretty stupid reason for me not to agree with it.

I do agree with you on a few things though. You are right, i DO anticipate having God answer my prayers. I DO expect the Holy Ghost to teach me truth. And so far, i HAVE gotten the truth that i want to get.

[Mudcat]

As a Christian I view Scripture, the revealed Word of God, as the highest authority. So if someone presented me with a text that I understood to contradict Scripture (e.g., “saved by grace after all you can do”) and asked me to pray about it, I’d be unwilling to put God to such a test. But supposing in a moment of weakness I did exactly that—I prayed about the LDS Book of Mormon. And suppose further that I subsequently felt a “burning in the bosom”—affirming its validity, per the LDS.

Hi Ulysses,

I am a somewhat radical Evangelical. Your post seems directed at LDS, but I wanted to take minute and interject my own thoughts. It seems you would be unwilling to put God to such a test. Would you rather drink poison or get bitten by venomous snakes, instead?

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.....

I quoted the "supposed" words of Christ here. Do you believe it?

The obvious question: What is the source of that affirmation? Of course I’d turn to Scripture to answer the question. Jeremiah 17:9 would remind me my own heart (my feelings, my instincts, my inclinations) is “deceitful above all things.” And the Apostle John would remind me that “evil spirits” are in the world and that I should “test the spirits (vis-

[annewandering]

i shouldnt laugh but its kinda funny that if you do get an answer tthat the book of mormon is true then its supposedly obvious that we are deceiving ourselves?

are you afraid its true? if it is will you be devastated? you wont. you will be a changed person. changed by the spirit of God. try it. it's great.

[Mudcat]

i shouldnt laugh but its kinda funny that if you do get an answer tthat the book of mormon is true then its supposedly obvious that we are deceiving ourselves?

are you afraid its true? if it is will you be devastated? you wont. you will be a changed person. changed by the spirit of God. try it. it's great.

If Tony the Tiger quits Kellogg's.... I am sending your name in.

just messin with you, Anne.

Mudcat

[selek]

If Tony the Tiger quits Kellogg's.... I am sending your name in.

just messin with you, Anne.

Mudcat

Muddie, did you know the (late) Tony The Tiger is the narrator/singer of the original Grinch song?

I was listening to it with my daughter the other day and I'm still trying to figure out how they get away with playing that song as a Christmas carol.

[Cadizita]

As a Christian I view Scripture, the revealed Word of God, as the highest authority. So if someone presented me with a text that I understood to contradict Scripture (e.g., â??saved by grace after all you can doâ?) and asked me to pray about it, Iâ??d be unwilling to put God to such a test. But supposing in a moment of weakness I did exactly thatâ??I prayed about the LDS Book of Mormon. And suppose further that I subsequently felt a â??burning in the bosomâ?â??affirming its validity, per the LDS.

The obvious question: What is the source of that affirmation? Of course Iâ??d turn to Scripture to answer the question. Jeremiah 17:9 would remind me my own heart (my feelings, my instincts, my inclinations) is â??deceitful above all things.â? And the Apostle John would remind me that â??evil spiritsâ? are in the world and that I should â??test the spirits (vis-

[Cold Steel]

It seems you (and Deborah) would use the Bible (Luke 24) to undo the Bible.

Now why would we do that? All we're saying...all I'm saying...is that we're operating under the same rules now that the saints did anciently. We're open to whatever God wishes to reveal to mankind.

You suppose the Bible gives you an unfailing means to detecting the truthâ??your heart burning with in you. And if your heart burns within you regarding any questionâ??then you suppose that answer to be reliable even if it contradicts the Bible itself.

I never said "if it contradicts the Bible." The scriptures state: â??But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.â? (D&C 9: It also "enlarges one's soul." (Alma 32:28)

In the words of Joseph Smith, people can easily distinguish the Spirit of God: â??They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God.â?

I have studied "Mormonism" for many decades and I've never yet seen it contradict the Bible in any meaningful way. We regard the Holy Spirit just as the ancient saints did. Also, in one reads the book of Acts in the Bible, one can see the Holy Spirit moving in powerful ways:

1) As a

revealer

of Christ

2) As

a guide

to the church in where to conduct missionary efforts

3) As a means of

discernment

4) As a means of

warning

and

protection

5) As a means of

calling new church officers

We don't use the Holy Spirit any differently.

How can anyone believe such a manifestion ("whisper peace and joy to their souls...take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts") could be of Satan? Does not Paul say: "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17) Ah, so the Holy Ghost brings peace and joy! In the very next chapter, Paul goes on to say: "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." See how these things are of God? Peace. Joy. The lack of malice, the lack of hatred and the lack of strife and of "all evil." It gets back to the doctrine that all good comes from the Father; by their fruits ye shall know them.

It's true that if every Bible in the world just vanished overnight, the LDS people would be the only church that would be able to retain its theology and continue on unfettered.

[annewandering]

If Tony the Tiger quits Kellogg's.... I am sending your name in.just messin with you, Anne.Mudcat

lol i would NEVER mess with Tony!!

Muddie, did you know the (late) Tony The Tiger is the narrator/singer of the original Grinch song?I was listening to it with my daughter the other day and I'm still trying to figure out how they get away with playing that song as a Christmas carol.

cuz its deliciously scary!!! and santa is so goooooooooooooooood sometimes maybe it gets a LITTLE boring. lol i didnt intend to cap the little but it just looks right!

[selek]

lol i would NEVER mess with Tony!!cuz its deliciously scary!!! and santa is so goooooooooooooooood sometimes maybe it gets a LITTLE boring. lol i didnt intend to cap the little but it just looks right!

Yes- like a good Vincent Price movie- cheese to go with your crackers and the delicious sensation of horror without gore.

While I certainly agree with you about the generic/bland/vanilla nature of a lot of what passes for music during this season, and I'm certainly no conformist- I'm just not sure the following conveys the proper Christmas spirit.

You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch

Author: Dr. Seuss

You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.

You really are a heel.

You're as cuddly as a cactus,

You're as charming as an eel.

Mr. Grinch.

You're a bad banana

With a greasy black peel.

You're a monster, Mr. Grinch.

Your heart's an empty hole.

Your brain is full of spiders,

You've got garlic in your soul.

Mr. Grinch.

I wouldn't touch you, with a

thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

You're a vile one, Mr. Grinch.

You have termites in your smile.

You have all the tender sweetness

Of a seasick crocodile.

Mr. Grinch.

Given the choice between the two of you

I'd take the seasick crockodile.

You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch.

You're a nasty, wasty skunk.

Your heart is full of unwashed socks

Your soul is full of gunk.

Mr. Grinch.

The three words that best describe you,

are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."

You're a rotter, Mr. Grinch.

You're the king of sinful sots.

Your heart's a dead tomato splot

With moldy purple spots,

Mr. Grinch.

Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing

with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable

rubbish imaginable,

Mangled up in tangled up knots.

You nauseate me, Mr. Grinch.

With a nauseaus super-naus.

You're a crooked jerky jockey

And you drive a crooked horse.

Mr. Grinch.

You're a three decker saurkraut and toadstool

sandwich

With arsenic sauce.

Copyright

[Mudcat]

i didnt intend to cap the little but it just looks right!

I tried to divest myself from "How is statement not perverted?" and I still don't get it.

Maybe normal folk will grasp the true meaning of your words, I for one am at a loss....but found it quite funny nonetheless.

[annewandering]

but it reminds us that as horrible as he was he became converted to the meaning behind christmas. what could be more wonderful other than the actual fact of Jesus birth and life?

i love his poor dog. so long suffering yet faithful to his belief in christmas.

[Avatar4321]

CFR?

"Many, many others"?

You know. the people that exist only in these hypotheticals and then start out by mocking the entire process of learning through the power of the Holy Ghost. Those many people.

[Avatar4321]

What a strange day we live in when asking God for knowledge, wisdom, and truth is mocked as heretical whereas mocking the Holy Spirit and relying on the understanding of the flesh is proclaimed to be the only way to God.

[ryanelwood]

Ryan,

Please tell us what made you decide that the BoM should be used as a standard of truth? Why do you think it is the word of God? Furthermore, which version of the BoM are you referring to?

I never said the Book of Mormon should be used as a standard of truth or that it is the word of God. As for the vesion I use, I generally refer to the 1981 version published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

How can it? There us no proof that it is any more than an fairytale. A story to tell children but not to be taken too seriously.

Interesting observation. A story to tell children, well why not? Children are vulnerable and will believe a lot of what adults tell them. Just listen to the following fairytails that adults tell children:

Santa Clause

Easter Bunny

That 6,000 years ago a talking snake, yes a talking snake, appeared to our first ancestors and told them to eat a magical piece of fruit that gave them knowledge of good and evil.

That there was once a man like Hercules, Superman, and the Incredible Hulk that had a magic head of hair. If he grew the magic hair long he could tear lions apart and kill a thousand soldiers with the jawbone of a donkey.

That there was once guy swallowed whole by a fish and lived for three days.

And of course the mother of all fairytales, that a man built a big ship and fit several million animals on it, eight people were able to somehow take care of them. A load of water covered the entire earth, even above Mt. Everest where they could not have breathed. The big ship lands in the Middle East, then the kangaroo's swam to Australia, the American Moose and Bison swam to North America, etc.

And don't forget the guy that was magically born of a virgin, performed magical miracles, magically came back from the dead, and then like Superman was able to magically fly away to never be seen again.

What is funny is that most children grow out of believing in flying reindeer and big rabbits delivering candy, for some reason many adults have a hard time stripping themselves of the other fairy tales. Man, can you imagine a 21st century enlightened human being believing in talking snakes, magical fruit, magical heads of hair that make someone strong, magically surviving in a fish's belly for three days, a magical ship with endless amounts of room on it, believing in magical virgin births even after having sex education in 8th grade, a man magically coming back alive after three days and then defying gravity by flying away (unless of course he was from the planet Krypton)? Can you imagine a 21st century adult believing such fairy tales?

I believe if you are able to call the Book of Mormon story a fairytale and are able to swallow the above absurd stories, you are doing what Jesus referred to as swallowing a Camel and gagging on Nat. But don't tell me, there is proof for these fairy tales. Just look at all the archaeological evidence for the Bible, Jerusalem is really there! Wow! Well since Nauvoo is really there too, then maybe the Book of Mormon fairytale is true also.

[ryanelwood]

Well ryanelwood, I asked first. How about you answer my question, and then I'll answer yours...

;0)

Alright then, I will answer your question. Praying to know the truth of something is an absolute absurd and subjective test. What happens is that people have what is referred to as a spiritual experience and then interpret it as God talking to them that something is true. Many times they were expecting the answer of yes and could perhaps be giving themselves a psychological experience. No one would propose such an idiotic test for nearly anything else in the world. Could you imagine being on trial and having your innocence decided by the judge praying? I can't.

But what is also absurd to determining truth is using a 2,000 year old book of Jewish fairy tales. Especially when it is supposed to be done by looking for conflict with what is established scripture. Imagine living during the Christian era, the ancient law of Moses is supposedly fulfilled and no longer needs to be followed. Yet when you open your Hebrew scriptures you read Gen. 17:7-14 that says circumcision will be everlasting. So of course you reject Paul's take on it. Then you read Exodus 12:14 and 24 and discover that the Passover is to be kept throughout your generations forever. Then you read Exodus 29:38 that says two lambs are to be sacrificed day by day continually, everyday, for all time to come; so you of course reject that Jesus was the last sacrifice since it conflicts with the word of God. Feast of unleavened bread is to be forever in Lev. 23:5-14. And there is about a dozen other Old Testament laws that God said would be forever. So naturally you would have rejected the Christian message before those dudes got together to slap together the New Testament and added them to the Word of God. Then of course you would have rejected the trinity since Isaiah 43 and 44 say there is only one God and no where does it say God is some strange blob of substance that is three persons. This trinitarian concept of God is entirely foreign to any Old Testament believer. Not to mention your finite and rational mind is far too intelligent to believe a substance can somehow be three undivided persons.

So now I have answered your questions, now answer mine. Why in the world would I use a mythology book as a test of truth? And which version should I use to test the truth? For example, should I believe that God is man as the Mormons do? Well, if I read Mark 10:18 in the original 1611 King James version, it says this: "And Jesus said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God." Hmm, so God is a man. But wait, this is not what the modern King James Version says (I am not referring to the "New" King James Version), it says, "And Jesus said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." So one version says the Mormons are correct that God is a man whereas the other is more ambiguous. Which version should I use as my standard of truth? Furthermore, the original 1611 King James Version contained 10 more books beyond the 66 books in the Modern King James. Are these books scripture or not?

[1Peter]

Praying to know the truth of something is an absolute absurd and subjective test. What happens is that people have what is referred to as a spiritual experience and then interpret it as God talking to them that something is true. Many times they were expecting the answer of yes and could perhaps be giving themselves a psychological experience.

When I received my testimony of God, Christ and the Bible I wasn't expecting a yes, I was hoping for an answer. I thought that the Bible might be fiction and wanted to know if it was true, if it is then I had to follow.

For the record, it is.

[Brade]

So the question I submit to the LDS on the boardâ??how do you know you havenâ??t been deceived?

This is easy. I don't know I haven't been deceived. But the experiences I've had were powerful enough to me that it would be irrational for me not to follow what I percieve is the content of those experiences. Therefore, I'm Mormon. It's worth noting that the most respected non-Mormon traditional Christian philosophers are the source of the philosophical method I've just described. I don't know of any respected Christian philosophers or theologians that believe the bible is the Word of God because the bible says it's the Word of God. They all recognize that argument to be too tight a circle and they affirm that personal spiritual experience ought to be the basis for belief in God.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

As a Christian I view Scripture, the revealed Word of God, as the highest authority. So if someone presented me with a text that I understood to contradict Scripture (e.g., â??saved by grace after all you can doâ?) and asked me to pray about it, Iâ??d be unwilling to put God to such a test. But supposing in a moment of weakness I did exactly thatâ??I prayed about the LDS Book of Mormon. And suppose further that I subsequently felt a â??burning in the bosomâ?â??affirming its validity, per the LDS.

This was answered...if I could use the search engine I would post.

[Zakuska]

As a Christian I view Scripture, the revealed Word of God, as the highest authority. So if someone presented me with a text that I understood to contradict Scripture (e.g., "saved by grace after all you can do") and asked me to pray about it, I'd be unwilling to put God to such a test. But supposing in a moment of weakness I did exactly thatâ??I prayed about the LDS Book of Mormon. And suppose further that I subsequently felt a "burning in the bosom"â??affirming its validity, per the LDS.

Funny... For me... God is the highest "Authority".

Matt 7

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes and the Pharasees are who viewed, the revealed word of God as written on the scroll as "the highest authority". Kind of like you.

The letter on the page kills... the spirit gives life.

Rom. 2: 27

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Rom. 7: 6

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Intrestingly...

John 14

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It was the HolyGhost or spirit that was to teach us ALL things. Not the Bible. And we all know what happens when scripture is opened to us...

Luke 24: 32

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

[Somebodyz]

So the question I submit to the LDS on the boardâ??how do you know you havenâ??t been deceived?

I'm not good with words or at expressing myself fully. So I hope you will bare with me as I try and explain.

I know for sure, that I've not been deceived. I used to read the Bible in Baptist classes and for tests they gave. Many a time growing up, I called on the Lord, begging pleading for help, deliverance from situations I was in, that were beyond my control. Many a time, I felt unheard and unloved by the Lord. I still called out..till eventually I had a relationship with the Lord, once I was prepared to hear.

Once I'd stopped doing things that put a barrier between him and I.

This was at a time, when I had no religion. One night, out alone, in the cold, I called out. He guided me, admonished me, taught me about forgiveness, and gave me advice. It wasn't a burning in my breast, it was so much more.

When the LDS church came into my life, I continued to call on the Lord for guidance, once again it was so much more than a burning. I can't share with you what happened, it is too special. This is the Lords church, the right path. The God I called out too, was the same God I called out to in my youth. The Lord almighty. The same one who answered me, on a cold, wet, dark night and prepared me for the years leading up to hearing about the Church.

If you had a witness from the Holy Ghost, you would understand.

The fruits are all good. I do not believe the devil can bring forth good fruit.

[cdowis]

How about you answer my question, and then I'll answer yours...

May I suggest that you read Alma chapter 32, beginning with verse 17. The promise in Moroni should be used with this scripture on testing whether the BOM is the word of the Lord.

Ok, so tell us how to test the Bible.

[Ulysses]

Now, will you answer our question or are you just going to play games.

Not sure what you mean by "our question"--since this appears to be your only post on the thread. If you're asking me whether I intend to make a reply to every single post, my answer is no (but I will read them all and give them due thought and consideration and reply to some of them). I've got to go to work now, so I'll check back in the evening. If there's a particular question you'd like me to answer, call it out for me and I'll answer it. And I will get back to ryanelwood--since I specifically said I would.

Thanks

[Lightbearer]

As a Christian I view Scripture, the revealed Word of God, as the highest authority. So if someone presented me with a text that I understood to contradict Scripture (e.g., â??saved by grace after all you can doâ?) and asked me to pray about it, Iâ??d be unwilling to put God to such a test. But supposing in a moment of weakness I did exactly thatâ??I prayed about the LDS Book of Mormon. And suppose further that I subsequently felt a â??burning in the bosomâ?â??affirming its validity, per the LDS.

The obvious question: What is the source of that affirmation? Of course Iâ??d turn to Scripture to answer the question. Jeremiah 17:9 would remind me my own heart (my feelings, my instincts, my inclinations) is â??deceitful above all things.â? And the Apostle John would remind me that â??evil spiritsâ? are in the world and that I should â??test the spirits (vis-