Degrees Of Heaven

[Phinehas]

LDS believe in degrees of heaven.

So I am wondering, Do they believe in degrees of righteousness?

It only stands to reason that they would

The more righteous one is the higher they can go in heaven's upper classes.

I believe:

If God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to us because we have believed, then it is folly for us to try to improve on that righteousness by doing works. (I am NOT saying we shouldn't do good works)

We can't improve on God's righteousness.

There is no way we can improve on the right standing that He has imputed to us. We are righteous.

That is God's accounting of our life because we believe and trust in the work of Jesus Christ.

We have one righteousness and so one destination. Not measured in degrees

[Bee Eff]

LDS believe in degrees of heaven.

So I am wondering, Do they believe in degrees of righteousness?

It only stands to reason that they would

The more righteous one is the higher they can go in heaven's upper classes.

I believe:

If God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to us because we have believed, then it is folly for us to try to improve on that righteousness by doing works. (I am NOT saying we shouldn't do good works)

We can't improve on God's righteousness.

There is no way we can improve on the right standing that He has imputed to us. We are righteous.

That is God's accounting of our life because we believe and trust in the work of Jesus Christ.

We have one righteousness and so one destination. Not measured in degrees

We don't believe in degrees of righteousness:

Rom. 3: 10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

We believe in differing degrees of reward in heaven:

Matt. 16: 27

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev. 22: 12

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[BCSpace]

LDS believe in degrees of heaven.

So I am wondering, Do they believe in degrees of righteousness?

It only stands to reason that they would

The more righteous one is the higher they can go in heaven's upper classes.

Our understanding is similar to original Christianity's understanding.....

Our understanding of the passage [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise in glory, i.e., of the saints, barrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars." Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294

"And some are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely with him. And third are those of whom we spoke, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols." Origen, Commentary on John 2:3, in ANF 10:324-325

"And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference betwen the sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment." John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is ...right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of...medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place, he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506

"Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed... These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord... To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6.14 (ANF 2:506).

"This hidden world includes first of all the heavens. Of these, traditional Judaism knew only three: the heaven of meteors, the heaven of stars and the heaven of God, and this is the scheme employed in the older Jewish apocalyptic. It is this system to which Paul alludes." Some Jewish Christians elaborated the three-heaven system into one of seven or more heavens, but in all cases, beings of various degrees of glory were thought to inhabit them." Jean Dani

[Phinehas]

We don't believe in degrees of righteousness:

Rom. 3: 10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

We believe in differing degrees of reward in heaven:

Matt. 16: 27

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev. 22: 12

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Please explain further?

I agree with these verses. But I don't think we agree on what they are teaching

[jadams_4242]

LDS believe in degrees of heaven.

So I am wondering, Do they believe in degrees of righteousness?

It only stands to reason that they would

The more righteous one is the higher they can go in heaven's upper classes.

I believe:

If God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to us because we have believed, then it is folly for us to try to improve on that righteousness by doing works. (I am NOT saying we shouldn't do good works)

We can't improve on God's righteousness.

There is no way we can improve on the right standing that He has imputed to us. We are righteous.

That is God's accounting of our life because we believe and trust in the work of Jesus Christ.

We have one righteousness and so one destination. Not measured in degrees

So if i beleive in,have faith in and worship the saviour with all my heart, then go out and rape someone every week, does his imputed righteousness still acount for me?

[Billy]

We don't believe in degrees of righteousness. . .

We believe in differing degrees of reward in heaven:

So you could be equally righteous--including equal in terms of ordinances--and one could go to the telestial and the other could go to the celestial kingdom?

[johnny]

BCSpace

Our understanding is similar to original Christianity's understanding.....

A Mormon's understanding is very different to original Christianity's understanding..... Irenaeus wrote

• Irenaeus "For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,' these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,' these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word." Against Heresies,4,28,2(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:501
  

Our understanding of the passage [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise in glory, i.e., of the saints, barrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars." Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294

There are not different glories after Final Judgment. After the Final Judgment there is only the glory of God (Rev 21:11). Before the Final Judgment there is the glory of the sun, the moon, and the stars (1Cor 15:41). Before the Final Judgment the just spirits in the heavenly city are made perfect (Heb 12:22-23). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

Members of the church do not inherit different kingdoms. The righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). Salvation is not for all, in the lake of fire with Satan are the unbelievers, all liars, false prophets and those who commit the unpardonable sin (Mark 16:16; 2Thes 2:10-13; Rev 21:8 ). Life comes to those who have done good and damnation comes to those who have done evil (John 5:29).

The valiant are not the only ones with the Father. All who have their names in the book of life will dwell with God their Father in the holy city in the kingdom of God (Rev 21:1-11,27). Those who have their names in the book of life shall inherit all things and sit on a throne (Rev 21:7; Rev 3:7-12, 21).

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

There Are Many Mansions

Throughout the Bible, there are references to multiple realms: the third heaven, the highest heavens, the heavens, heavenly realms, and many dwelling places.

The Apostle Paul equated the different degrees of glory of resurrected bodies with glory of three heavenly bodies of the sun, moon, and stars. â??There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.â? (1 Corinthians 15:40-42)

Again to the Corinthians, he made mention of a â??thirdâ? heaven. â??I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this person - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that humans are not permitted to tell. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4)

There are lower Heavenly Realms that are filled with rulers, authorities, powers, dominions, and wicked spirits. â??For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms. (Ephesians 6:12)

There are higher Heavenly Realms, far above the rulers, authorities, powers, and dominions. â??Which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at the right hand of him in the heavenly places, far above every rule and authority and power and dominion, and above everyone that is praised, not only in this aeon, but in that which is to come: and he subjected all things under his feet, and gave him as head above the entire ecclesia, which is his body, the pleroma of the one who fills all things in all. (Ephesians 1:20-23)

It goes on and on; â??In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.â? (John 14:2) â??He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.â? (Ephesians 4:10) â??But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?â? (2 Chronicles 2:6)

The Firmament

Also Ancient Judaism believed in a Hierarchy of Seven Heavens such as recorded in the Enochian Literature and Jewish Apocrypha/Pseudographia Scriptures where Third Heaven was described as a Paradise that Housed the Garden of Eden and Seventh Heaven was God's Domain. When ancient Judaism conceived of the universe, they constructed a multi-layered world, sort of like a large onion composed of various layers with the physical world in which human beings lived at the center. These layers were called "Firmament" or Shamayim (Heavens or Skies) in the Old Testament or just "Heavens" in the New Testament era.

In Early Christian Gnosticism was known to contain Ten Heavens, where the Glory of the Stars, Moon, and Sun were above the Seventh Heaven, God resided on Tenth Heaven, and the Demiurge resided on Seventh Heaven. Those Heavens are also recorded in The Apocalypse of Paul and other Early Christian Apocrypha/Pseudographia Scriptures, many Non-Canonical Books and Writings that also describe these layers. This model was still in use in the Middle Ages (1400s AD) that inspired Dante to write his book of the various levels of heaven and hell.

[Heartleap]

So if i beleive in,have faith in and worship the saviour with all my heart, then go out and rape someone every week, does his imputed righteousness still acount for me?

A person who truly has been indwelt with the Holy Spirit would not do what you are saying here. People can say they are Christian and put on a fancy show for the world and not know God at all. Only God knows the true intent of each persons heart. We can not fool him or surprise him. If God sees fit to forgive a person who has done something like this then he will work it out with him. This imputed righteousness would not work for this individual because they obviously do not belong to Christ yet.

Heartleap...

[Eden*]

In early editions of the Articles of Faith, James E. Talamage stated there is an infinity of degrees of glory corresponding with infinite degrees of righteousness however the bretheren didn't like that as it was not dogmatic enough so it was removed. Lds after life degrees are fairly basic and they go in this order, Outer Darkness, Hell, (Spirit Prison/Paradise) Telestial, Terrestial, Celestial, {3 internal Celestial Degrees}.

[johnny]

Ray Callis Hatto...

Throughout the Bible, there are references to multiple realms: the third heaven, the highest heavens, the heavens, heavenly realms, and many dwelling places.

Before Final Judgment there is a third heaven, the highest heavens, etc.

After Final Judgment there is "a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1)

The Apostle Paul equated the different degrees of glory of resurrected bodies with glory of three heavenly bodies of the sun, moon, and stars. â??

When a person dies, the just dead rise with different different degrees of glory (1Cor 15:35-41). At the resurrection of the dead, at Final Judgment, they are raised in glory (1Cor 15:42-44). They have the glory of the God (Rev 21:11), the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

• 1Cor.15 ([35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. )
  
• -
  
• 1Cor.15 ( [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.)
  

[zerinus]

LDS believe in degrees of heaven. So I am wondering, Do they believe in degrees of righteousness? It only stands to reason that they would

Yes, we believe in different degrees of righteousness, corresponding to the different degrees of glory. Read D&C 76 to find out more.

Please explain further? I agree with these verses. But I don't think we agree on what they are teaching

Try this:

Matthew 5

:

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

This suggests some receive greater rewards in heaven than others.

zerinus

[johnny]

zerinus

This suggests some receive greater rewards in heaven than others.

Rewards does not mean different glories or different kingdoms for the sons of God. The reward is great for those who love their enemies and do good (Luke 6:35-38). The good and faithful servant will be made a ruler over many things and enter thou into the joy of thy lord (Matt 25:21). In heaven, the righteous have the glory of the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

[Bee Eff]

zerinus

Rewards does not mean different glories or different kingdoms for the sons of God. The reward is great for those who love their enemies and do good (Luke 6:35-38). The good and faithful servant will be made a ruler over many things and enter thou into the joy of thy lord (Matt 25:21). In heaven, the righteous have the glory of the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

You are stretching, All men do not have the same works. If all men receive reward based on their works as the Bible states, then there are differing degrees of reward. If there are differing degrees of reward there are in fact differing degrees to which men share in Christ.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

You are stretching, All men do not have the same works. If all men receive reward based on their works as the Bible states, then there are differing degrees of reward. If there are differing degrees of reward there are in fact differing degrees to which men share in Christ.

I agree there are differing degrees of reward ... what I don't agree with is the Mormon teaching that after Final Judgment there are different glories and different kingdoms because this is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

[LDSMusic483]

Bee Eff

I agree there are differing degrees of reward ... what I don't agree with is the Mormon teaching that after Final Judgment there are different glories and different kingdoms because this is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

Johnny, do you believe one can advance after dying? Do you believe in a progression as did Irenaeus ?

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

I agree there are differing degrees of reward ... what I don't agree with is the Mormon teaching that after Final Judgment there are different glories and different kingdoms because this is contrary to what the Bible reveals.

You are making the fundamentally flawed assumption that most LDS do. Differing Kingdoms and Differing glories do not equate to differing location.

The Bible, as well as LDS scripture, shows lesser angels doing God's work in His presence. If the location concept were true such would be impossible.

God uses a single field as representative of all 3 kingdoms in the D&C. The only difference is when the kingdom occurs in that field. The Celestial is present in the beginning, then the Terrestrial enters, and then later the Telestial. There is only one field, one heaven.

The glories and kingdoms are simply synonyms, or metaphors, for the reward.

Unless of course you claim the reward Christ gives is finite and not eternal.

[thesometimesaint]

John 14: 2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Too many Christians have abandoned the concept for a one size fits all category.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

Johnny, do you believe one can advance after dying? Do you believe in a progression as did Irenaeus ?

I believe that the spirits of just men are made perfect before the day of Final Judgment.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

You are making the fundamentally flawed assumption that most LDS do. Differing Kingdoms and Differing glories do not equate to differing location.

You seem to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches, it teaches they are places,

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: the celestial kingdom (the highest degree of glory), the terrestrial kingdom (the second degree), the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree), or outer darkness (the kingdom of the devil--not a degree of glory)."
  

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

You seem to differ with what the Mormon Church teaches, it teaches they are places,

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 46 "At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: the celestial kingdom (the highest degree of glory), the terrestrial kingdom (the second degree), the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree), or outer darkness (the kingdom of the devil--not a degree of glory)."
  

Approaching Mormon Doctrine

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four standard works of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

If I am sent to the place of HR, the place of production, the place of R&D or the place of unemployment am I within the company? Aside from being sent to the place of unemployment these "places" necessarily separate in the manner you are implying? I do not mean to say that your conception is any different than the typical "Mormon", only that that understanding isn't necessarily correct. There is only one Kingdom of God, subsisting of underlying "Glories" or "Kingodms" which are in fact simply differtiated individuals set in their places.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

There is only one Kingdom of God, subsisting of underlying "Glories" or "Kingodms" which are in fact simply differtiated individuals set in their places.

Members of the church do not inherit different kingdoms. The righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). Salvation is not for all, in the lake of fire with Satan are the unbelievers, all liars, false prophets and those who commit the unpardonable sin (Mark 16:16; 2Thes 2:10-13; Rev 21:8 ). Life comes to those who have done good and damnation comes to those who have done evil (John 5:29).

There are not different glories after Final Judgment. After the Final Judgment there is only the glory of God (Rev 21:11). Before the Final Judgment there is the glory of the sun, the moon, and the stars (1Cor 15:41). Before the Final Judgment the just spirits in the heavenly city are made perfect (Heb 12:22-23). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

Members of the church do not inherit different kingdoms. The righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). Salvation is not for all, in the lake of fire with Satan are the unbelievers, all liars, false prophets and those who commit the unpardonable sin (Mark 16:16; 2Thes 2:10-13; Rev 21:8 ). Life comes to those who have done good and damnation comes to those who have done evil (John 5:29).

There are not different glories after Final Judgment. After the Final Judgment there is only the glory of God (Rev 21:11). Before the Final Judgment there is the glory of the sun, the moon, and the stars (1Cor 15:41). Before the Final Judgment the just spirits in the heavenly city are made perfect (Heb 12:22-23). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

So the rewards Christ gives, that are based on the works of the individual, are temporary and not eternal?

You should drop your hang up on the term "kingdom" it is a metaphorical term when used to describe differentiation in heaven. There is only one kingdom.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

So the rewards Christ gives, that are based on the works of the individual, are temporary and not eternal?

To help me understand what you mean by "rewards", please provide some Bible scripture that reveal the "rewards" you are talking about ... thanks.

You should drop your hang up on the term "kingdom" it is a metaphorical term when used to describe differentiation in heaven. There is only one kingdom.

I drop the different kingdoms that Mormonism teaches about because they are contrary to what the Bible reveals.

[Phinehas]

I am not talking rewards here. I am talking righteousness

IMHO and from what I learn in the bible, there is only righteous or not righteous.

It's like pregnancy

YOU either are pregnant or you aren't.

There is no "more pregnant" than someone else.

Let me define righteous

innocent, faultless, guiltless approved of or acceptable of God