Phinehas Posted November 15, 2008 Author Posted November 15, 2008 And apparently you have misunderstood Paul...Romans 331 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. The law is established... how?Romans 615 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Obedience to what?Romans 3 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Godâ??s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. <A name=9> 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. <a href="http://" target="_blank"></a> 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Hmm... Paul puts us right back under the 10 commandments.And since no one can keep them perfectly we are right back to Christ as our only hope!! If you trust in yourself you are sunk This points right back to what I said.Now if you twist the law, and you use it as an instrument to make you feel very righteous, and you have this sense, "Well, I have kept the law. I am living an honest life. I do my best. I try to be good and all, and I don't live like those heathens out there," then you have misunderstood the intent of the law completely and you are missing the righteousness of God.
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffI have shown that after Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). I have no problem that there are many mansions.You were claiming that the concept of "many mansions"/places was contrary to the teachings of the Bible. This statement by yourself contradicts your previous position.I have repeatedly stated that the terms "kingdom" and "glory" were metaphorical. They are synonyms to the term "mansion".Bee EffMembers of the church do not inherit different [mansions].
Phinehas Posted November 15, 2008 Author Posted November 15, 2008 You stated that the Law drives us to despair. This is not true. The Law drives us to a knowledge of how to escape our state. The Law is not a harsh taskmaster, it is a wonderful light that reveals the darkness for what it is. Our metaphors were not equivalent. God never did anything to demean and demoralize his children, God provided us with aid in our striving.There is none righteous, there is only the hope that being unrighteous we may be accepted by Christ in our striving to become righteous. So you say it's up to us to strive to make Christ accept us? That is putting the onus upon yourself. Good luck with that. I'll enter in by Grace through Faith
zerinus Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Show me Your word is not enoughTrouble is that when I do, then it gets ignored, like this one:http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208538642zerinus
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 So you say it's up to us to strive to make Christ accept us? That is putting the onus upon yourself. Good luck with that. I'll enter in by Grace through FaithMake is not correct. We strive because striving is what we should do. Christ will accept whom he accepts. Regardless of whether I am accepted or not, the proper course is to strive to become righteous and simply hope that I am accepted.We do not put the onus on ourselves for acceptance, but we have the following:James 2: 18, 20, 26 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. followed by this:Matt. 16: 27 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 1 Cor. 3: 14 14 If any manâ??s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Rev. 22: 12 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. We do not strive to be accepted, but to be worthy of the reward Christ has promised.The onus is upon us to strive, not to determine our reception of graceEphesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.We cannot save ourselves, nothing we do can aid is in our salvation. We can work to be worthy of the reward though.
Zakuska Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 So you say it's up to us to strive to make Christ accept us?That is putting the onus upon yourself. Good luck with that.I'll enter in by Grace through FaithGood luck with that... I'll enter in How Paul tells me to...Romans 63 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: You're not "IN CHIRST" if you haven't been Baptized into him...Col. 2: 1212 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Faith leads us too Baptism. Why can't Evangelicals get even the basics down? I sware you have Autism or something and get caught in a loop.
Zakuska Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 And since no one can keep them perfectly we are right back to Christ as our only hope!!If you trust in yourself you are sunk This points right back to what I said.Who's trusting in themself? Is not Christ in you? He raises you each time you fall.
wenglund Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Since this was ignored, I am reposting it:There are at least two ways in which the word "righteopusness" is used:1) In reference to a spectrum of righteousness. This is most clearly evinced in Matthew 5:20, which says: "That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." So, in this sense, there are different degrees of righteousness.2) In reference to the polar end of the spectrum of righteousness. This is most clearly evinced in Matthew 6:33, which says: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." So, in this sense there is only one degree of ultimate righteousness.This makes sense if one considers righteousness as a processes rather than a single event (with Christ and his restored gospel entailing the process or "way"), with the righteousness of Christ being the desired and ultimate end of that process.In answer to the question of the OP, depending upon how much of the gospel process that one chooses to accept, then according to the divine law of obedience and blessing, they will acheive an equivolent level of righteousness, and in accordance with the final judgement receive an equivolent level of ressurected glory and heavenly kingdom. Those who choose the whole of Christ's gospel and conform their lives and nature thereto, will attain a fulness of God's righteousness in Christ, and will thereby become heirs of the same glory and kingdom as Christ. Those who choose or abide less than the whole of Chris's gospel, will in no wise lose their reward, but will according to their righteousness receive lesser glories and heavenly kingdoms. Right?Thanks, -Wade Englund-
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffYou were claiming that the concept of "many mansions"/places was contrary to the teachings of the Bible. This statement by yourself contradicts your previous position.My position is that there are many mansions in a city. My position is that before the Final Judgment the just spirits in the heavenly city are made perfect (Heb 12:22-23). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). I have repeatedly stated that the terms "kingdom" and "glory" were metaphorical. They are synonyms to the term "mansion".Again you seem to disagree with the teachings of the Mormon Church ... you say "metaphorical" ... the Mormon church teaches "places".
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffWe cannot save ourselves, nothing we do can aid is in our salvation. We can work to be worthy of the reward though.The Mormon restored gospel reveals "after all we can do" ... We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) . God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). Through faith we receive the Spirit (Gal 3:14). Faith without the spirit is dead, it is not faith only (James 2:13-26). We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffMy position is that there are many mansions in a city. My position is that before the Final Judgment the just spirits in the heavenly city are made perfect (Heb 12:22-23). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). Again you seem to disagree with the teachings of the Mormon Church ... you say "metaphorical" ... the Mormon church teaches "places".Are you stating that these "mansions" are not differing places?The Church teaches that there are differing "places" within the single "place" that is heaven.The terms "mansions", "kingdoms" and "glories" are all metaphors.
Zakuska Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffThe Mormon restored gospel reveals "after all we can do" ... We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) . God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6).YOU MISSED THE OTHER PART OF THIS TWO PART COMPARISON Through faith we receive the Spirit (Gal 3:14). Faith without the spirit is dead, it is not faith only (James 2:13-26). We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13).Its a tight rope between the two.
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffThe Mormon restored gospel reveals "after all we can do" ... We are not saved "after all we can do", we are saved by grace and faith (Eph 2:8 ) . God has saved us according to grace, not according to our works (2Tim 1:9). If by grace, then is it no more of works (Rom 11:6). Through faith we receive the Spirit (Gal 3:14). Faith without the spirit is dead, it is not faith only (James 2:13-26). We work out our salvation by God working in us (Phil 2:12,13)."after all we can do" does not conflict with "by grace we are saved through faith". "After all we can do" has no impact on our salvation, for only God can save us regardles of what we do. We do not boast, because no matter what we do, we cannot save ourselves. We can only be saved by God.
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffAre you stating that these "mansions" are not differing places?"mansions" are dwelling places ... kingdoms are kingdoms ... glory is glory ..The Church teaches that there are differing "places" within the single "place" that is heaven.The teachings of the Mormon Church are contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals after Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43) ... which you continue to ignore because it is contrary to the teachings of the Mormon Church.
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee Eff"after all we can do" does not conflict with "by grace we are saved through faith". "After all we can do" has no impact on our salvation, for only God can save us regardles of what we do. We do not boast, because no matter what we do, we cannot save ourselves. We can only be saved by God.It conflicts ... grace is NOT "after all we can do" ... faith is NOT "after all we can do".
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee Eff"mansions" are dwelling places ... kingdoms are kingdoms ... glory is glory ..The teachings of the Mormon Church are contrary to what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals after Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43) ... which you continue to ignore because it is contrary to the teachings of the Mormon Church.The kingdom of their Father, inludes many mansions/kingdoms/glories (pick the term you like.)Do you really believe that the righteous throughout all the kingdoms in the kingdom of God would not shine forth as the sun?I did not ignore it, Matt 13:40-43 does not present a conflict.
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffIt conflicts ... grace is NOT "after all we can do" ... faith is NOT "after all we can do".Where does the Bible state this? Faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26). Thus, works must be present for faith. By grace are ye saved through faith (Eph. 2: 8 ). Thus, works must be present for salvation by grace.Set it up in a logical manner:1 Faith without works is dead (James 2: 18, 20, 26). ~W then ~F2 Works must be present for faith. W then F3 By grace are ye saved through faith (Eph. 2: 8 ). F then G4 Thus, works must be present for salvation by grace. / W then G 2,3 Hypothetical SyllogismThis is oversimplified, but it is sufficient. Faith is only present given works.
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffDo you really believe that the righteous throughout all the kingdoms in the kingdom of God would not shine forth as the sun?After final judgment ... there is one kingdom ... there is one glory ... I believe the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.I did not ignore it, Matt 13:40-43 does not present a conflict.Who are the righteous?Do all righteous have the glory of the sun?Are the righteous in the kingdom with their heavenly Father?
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffAfter final judgment ... there is one kingdom ... there is one glory ... I believe the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.Who are the righteous?Do all righteous have the glory of the sun?Are the righteous in the kingdom with their heavenly Father?Matthew does say anything about glory. It states that the righteous shined as the sun. You are adding more to the scripture than the scripture states. But, yes, I believe that all of heaven shines as the sun.
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffWhere does the Bible state this?I have answered at the following thread so we don't detail this thread:Saved Through Faith...http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208538873
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffMatthew does say anything about glory. It states that the righteous shined as the sun. You are adding more to the scripture than the scripture states. But, yes, I believe that all of heaven shines as the sun.In scripture "sun" can refer to glory ... 1Cor 15:41 says "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars"
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffI have answered at the following thread so we don't detail this thread:Saved Through Faith...http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208538873Thank you for moving this there Bee EffIn scripture "sun" can refer to glory ... 1Cor 15:41 says "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars""Can" does not equate to "must" or "does".
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee Eff"Can" does not equate to "must" or "does".In Matt 13:43 "sun" as glory fits nice as a glory, see belowMatt.13 [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
Bee Eff Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffIn Matt 13:43 "sun" as glory fits nice as a glory, see belowMatt.13 [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hearI can concede that it could. But in relation to what? The verse uses the term righteous, thus they must be compared to the unrighteous. All of the single kingom of heaven, all the degrees/kingdoms of glory there in, shine forth as the sun in comparison to the unrighteous.
johnny Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Bee EffI can concede that it could. But in relation to what? The verse uses the term righteous, thus they must be compared to the unrighteous. All of the single kingom of heaven, all the degrees/kingdoms of glory there in, shine forth as the sun in comparison to the unrighteous.Scripture compares the righteous and the unrighteous,- the righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). - the unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9).
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.