Degrees Of Heaven

[zerinus]

zerinus

Rewards does not mean different glories or different kingdoms for the sons of God. . . .

Who are you to say? Paul said he was taken to the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2). That makes three heavens (at least).

zerinus

[wenglund]

From the many instances of the word "righteousness" in the Bible I get the sense that there are at least two ways in which the term is used:

1) In reference to a spectrum of righteousness. This is most clearly evinced in Matthew 5:20, which says: "That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

2) In reference to the polar end of the spectrum of righteousness. This is most clearly evinced in Matthew 6:33, which says: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

This makes sense if one considers righteousness as a processes, rather than a single event, with the righteousness of Christ being the desired end of that processes.

To me, Christ and his restored gospel is the process (the way) to becoming like Christ in righteousness.

In answer to the question of the OP, depending upon how much of the gospel process that one chooses to accept, then according to the divine law of obedience and blessing, they will acheive an equivolent level of righteousness, and in accordance with the final judgement receive an equivolent level of ressurected glory and heavenly kingdom. Those who choose the whole of Christ's gospel and conform their lives and nature thereto, will attain a fulness of God's righteousness in Christ, and will thereby become heirs of the same glory and kingdom as Christ. Those who choose or abide less than the whole of Chris's gospel, will in no wise lose their reward, but will according to their righteousness receive lesser glories and heavenly kingdoms.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Bee Eff]

I am not talking rewards here. I am talking righteousness

IMHO and from what I learn in the bible, there is only righteous or not righteous.

It's like pregnancy

YOU either are pregnant or you aren't.

There is no "more pregnant" than someone else.

Let me define righteous

innocent, faultless, guiltless approved of or acceptable of God

Already responded to this:

Rom. 3: 10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[Phinehas]

Bee Eff

To help me understand what you mean by "rewards", please provide some Bible scripture that reveal the "rewards" you are talking about ... thanks.

Well from my learning, there are crowns to be given in heaven, and those we will cast at the feet of Jesus because we will all realize that only He is worthy

Crown: metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness

Rev 4:10

[zerinus]

I am not talking rewards here. I am talking righteousness

IMHO and from what I learn in the bible, there is only righteous or not righteous.

It's like pregnancy

YOU either are pregnant or you aren't.

There is no "more pregnant" than someone else.

Let me define righteous

innocent, faultless, guiltless approved of or acceptable of God

You want to invent your own theology and impose it on the Bible. Those doctrines you are advocating are not biblical.

zerinus

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

To help me understand what you mean by "rewards", please provide some Bible scripture that reveal the "rewards" you are talking about ... thanks.

I drop the different kingdoms that Mormonism teaches about because they are contrary to what the Bible reveals.

Matt. 16: 27

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Cor. 3: 14

14 If any manâ??s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Rev. 22: 12

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The Bible states that Christ will reward everyone based on their works.

Matt. 19: 28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We have very salient statement of differing position as the apostles will in fact be on thrones judging others.

[johnny]

zerinus

Who are you to say? Paul said he was taken to the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2). That makes three heavens (at least).

That makes three heavens before the "new heaven" (Rev 21:1).

[Zakuska]

zerinus

That makes three heavens before the "new heaven" (Rev 21:1).

You seem to think the other heavens disappear when the new heaven is created.

[Bee Eff]

zerinus

That makes three heavens before the "new heaven" (Rev 21:1).

Unless of course that given "new heaven and new earth" he merely saw the sky and the earth both "new".

[Phinehas]

Already responded to this:

Rom. 3: 10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So you don't believe anyone is counted as righteous in God's eyes?

Do you believe that the righteousness of God can be imputed to believers?

I agree that no one is righteous except they be IN Christ.

For the law was a schoolmaster to teach us and to drive us to Jesus Christ. To make us despair of our own selves, to make us quit trying in our own flesh to attain a righteous standing before God. That was the purpose of the law, just to make you despair of your own flesh once and forever, so that you would seek the righteousness that God has provided through faith in Jesus Christ.

Now if you twist the law, and you use it as an instrument to make you feel very righteous, and you have this sense, "Well, I have kept the law. I am living an honest life. I do my best. I try to be good and all, and I don't live like those heathens out there," then you have misunderstood the intent of the law completely and you are missing the righteousness of God.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

The Bible states that Christ will reward everyone based on their works.

None of those verses described the reward ... do you know of any others ... thanks.

We have very salient statement of differing position as the apostles will in fact be on thrones judging others.

How does this compare to Rev 3 which says,

[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[Phinehas]

You want to invent your own theology and impose it on the Bible. Those doctrines you are advocating are not biblical.

zerinus

Show me

Your word is not enough

[Bee Eff]

So you don't believe anyone is counted as righteous in God's eyes?

Do you believe that the righteousness of God can be imputed to believers?

I agree that no one is righteous except they be IN Christ.

For the law was a schoolmaster to teach us and to drive us to Jesus Christ. To make us despair of our own selves, to make us quit trying in our own flesh to attain a righteous standing before God. That was the purpose of the law, just to make you despair of your own flesh once and forever, so that you would seek the righteousness that God has provided through faith in Jesus Christ.

Now if you twist the law, and you use it as an instrument to make you feel very righteous, and you have this sense, "Well, I have kept the law. I am living an honest life. I do my best. I try to be good and all, and I don't live like those heathens out there," then you have misunderstood the intent of the law completely and you are missing the righteousness of God.

No, the Law existed to show us our imperfection that we could strive for perfection. Otherwise we would be content in our sin and have no reason for cessation of sin.

Romans 7:9-16

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Romans 7 is a statement that the Law is necessary and that through it we know of our need for Christ. Without the Law, there is no need for Christ.

[Hoops22]

Maybe just to throw sand in the gears, but...

Righteousness and sinless-ness are not the same thing. Being without sin, covered by the blood of Christ only gets you to neutral. God is righteousness. It is not a characteristic of God, HE IS righteousness. Therefore, to inherit eternal life, we must be imputed with righteousness. That is impossible for anyone to do.

Which is why we're saved by grace.

[johnny]

Bee Eff

Unless of course that given "new heaven and new earth" he merely saw the sky and the earth both "new".

Either way, we know that the righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

[Phinehas]

Who are you to say? Paul said he was taken to the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2). That makes three heavens (at least).

zerinus

In these days of biblical writings they understood the third heaven to be the dwelling place of God.

The first heaven is the blue sky that we see. where birds fly

The second heaven is the outer space where the planets and moon and sun are

The Third heaven is what we call heaven today

Those people knew exactly what Paul was talking about here

http://www.crivoice.org/thirdheaven.html

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

None of those verses described the reward ... do you know of any others ... thanks.

How does this compare to Rev 3 which says,

[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And do all of these then judge Israel? Or is it only a select group? Matthew 19:28 suggests that the apostles were to judge Israel, if Israel accepts Christ, and obtains a throne, are they not in a position to be judged by the apostles?

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483

I believe that the spirits of just men are made perfect before the day of Final Judgment.

But Irenaeus is talking after they have inherited the kingdom. In that same quote you mentioned towards the beginning of this thread, it says that they advance in the kingdom. Do you agree with this?

[Phinehas]

No, the Law existed to show us our imperfection that we could strive for perfection. Otherwise we would be content in our sin and have no reason for cessation of sin.

Romans 7:9-16

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Romans 7 is a statement that the Law is necessary and that through it we know of our need for Christ. Without the Law, there is no need for Christ.

I said as much

For the law was a schoolmaster to teach us and to drive us to Jesus Christ.

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff

Either way, we know that the righteous shall inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:33,46). The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). After Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43).

And God, in his kingdom, has many mansions, or using the LDS terminology "degrees of glory" or "kingdoms". You haven't shown anything denying this, you find vague statements and then deny that there are multiple mansions.

John 14: 2

2 In [heaven, the Kingdom of God] are many [kingdoms/glories]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[johnny]

zerinus

You want to invent your own theology and impose it on the Bible. Those doctrines you are advocating are not biblical.

Do you believe in the doctrine of the book of life ... The righteous have their name in the book of life. Those who have their names in the book of life will dwell with God their Father in the holy city in the kingdom of God (Rev 21:1-11,27). Those who have their names in the book of life shall receive their reward, shall inherit all things and sit on a throne (Matt 16:27; Rev 21:7; Rev 3:7-12, 21).

The unrighteous are not in the book of life. The unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom (1Cor 6:9). Salvation is not for all, in the lake of fire with Satan are the unbelievers, all liars, false prophets and those who commit the unpardonable sin (Mark 16:16; 2Thes 2:10-13; Rev 21:8 ).

[Zakuska]

Now if you twist the law, and you use it as an instrument to make you feel very righteous, and you have this sense, "Well, I have kept the law. I am living an honest life. I do my best. I try to be good and all, and I don't live like those heathens out there," then you have misunderstood the intent of the law completely and you are missing the righteousness of God.

And apparently you have misunderstood Paul...

Romans 3

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law is established... how?

Romans 6

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Obedience to what?

Romans 3

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Godâ??s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. <A name=9> 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. http://' target="_blank"> 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Hmm... Paul puts us right back under the 10 commandments.

[Phinehas]

And God, in his kingdom, has many mansions, or using the LDS terminology "degrees of glory" or "kingdoms". You haven't shown anything denying this, you find vague statements and then deny that there are multiple mansions.

John 14: 2

2 In [heaven, the Kingdom of God] are many [kingdoms/glories]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

The word "mansions" used here actually means "Dwelling places"

In my Fathers house are many dwelling places...

[johnny]

Bee Eff

And God, in his kingdom, has many mansions, or using the LDS terminology "degrees of glory" or "kingdoms". You haven't shown anything denying this, you find vague statements and then deny that there are multiple mansions.

I have shown that after Final Judgment the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:40-43). I have no problem that there are many mansions.

[Bee Eff]

I said as much

You stated that the Law drives us to despair. This is not true. The Law drives us to a knowledge of how to escape our state. The Law is not a harsh taskmaster, it is a wonderful light that reveals the darkness for what it is. Our metaphors were not equivalent. God never did anything to demean and demoralize his children, God provided us with aid in our striving.

There is none righteous, there is only the hope that being unrighteous we may be accepted by Christ in our striving to become righteous.