Baptisms For The Dead

[abqfriend]

The artwork presented is 1300 artwork-hardly early Christian-that being said-there is some justification in early Christianity for the Baptism of the Dead-I do not doubt that. As Paul mentioned it once in only 1 of his writings in 1 verse-make me think it was not an important issue at the time-and perhaps confined to the Church in Corinth. At any rate-he did not condemn it.

In Catholic Tradition-the word "hades" represents more of "Hell" than the Catholic view on purgatory.

I have no problem-as a Catholic that the LDS Church practices such an ordinance as Baptism for the dead.

Each of our Churches have different teachings/doctrine and a base of our theology.

To say one is right or one is wrong-would be in the view of the beholder of that position.

The long history of the various churches are part of this also.

The Catholic Church and other Christian Churches do not support such a view.

I do not know of any major church other than the LDS related Churches that do.

That said-is one right and one wrong?-I do not make such a judgment.

My Church has-which is fine-but it is not enough to argue about.

We are each a product of or led to our respective religious faith traditions.

Let us go as we feel God/The Heavenly Father directs us.

Carol

Not only is Baptism for the Dead written about in Early Christian Writings it is also portrayed in Early Christian Art:

Early Christian Art:

The depiction below is of "The Resurrection and the Preaching of St. Baptist in the Hades" Note how Christ grips the hands of those being resurrected out of hades. (8th picture down)

Baptism for the Dead is connected to early Christianity and shows up not only in art work but also the early Christian Fathers mentions John the Baptist went to hades to preach the gospel before the Savior descended there to liberate the souls.

Many art works depict this sort of thing. The Old Testament Saints, the prophets, are there to greet the glorious King upon his descent. Common reappearing elements in the art work are Christ standing on the broken doors to hell many times with Satan under the doors.

Early Christian Writings:

From the writings of the Church Fathers during the 3rd century, Origen of Alexandria, a student scholar of Clement of Alexandria, wrote that John the Baptist had died before Christ, "so that he might descend to the lower regions and announce [preach] his coming. For everywhere the witness and forerunner of Jesus is John, being born before and dying shortly before the Son of God, so that not only to those of his generation but likewise to those who lived before Christ should liberation from the death be preached, and that he might everywhere prepare a people trained to receive the Lord."

Hippolytus, wrote that John the Baptist had died first that he might prepare the souls in the spirit world for the gospel. John, â??first preached to those in Hades, becoming a forerunner there when he was put to death by Herod, that there too he might intimate that the Saviour would descend to ransom the souls of the saints from the hand of death.â?

Later, a medieval Easter drama, the "Harrowing of Hell," John descends first, then is there to greet Christ when Christ descended.

Clement of Rome [30-100 A.D.], hints to this when he wrote: "Thou shalt raise me up, and I shall confess unto Thee;" (Psa.28:7), and again I laid me down, and slept; I awaked, because Thou art with me;" (Compare Psa.3:6), and again, Job says, "Thou shalt raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things." (Job. 19:25-6).

In the Ethiopic document known as the Testament of Our Lord and Our Savior Jesus Christ 38â??39, Jesus tells his apostles, "For this reason I descended and conversed with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, with your fathers the prophets, and I announced to them, in Sheol, the rest in the heavens where they shall come. With my right hand, I gave them the baptism of life, pardon and remission of all sin, as I did for you, and (as I shall do) hereafter for those who shall believe in me." He then tells them that he who believes "shall come out of the prison and will be delivered from chains, from punishment and from the fire," to which the apostles respond, "O Lord, you have truly given us joy and rest, for because of their faith and their confidence, you have announced to our fathers and to the prophets; also for us and for all (who believe in you)."

"Celsus [Ancient Anti-Christian], making fun of the strange doctrine [of the Christians], asks Origen: '"Don't you people actually tell about him, that when he had failed to convert the people on this earth he went down to the underworld to try to convert the people down there?"

"We assert that Jesus not only converted no small number of persons while he was in the body . . . but also, that when he became a spirit, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those spirits which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself."

(Origen, Against Celsus II'' 43, in PG 11:864-65)

[JDave]

I have, which is why their stance seems so irrational to me. It would not bother me in the least if some religion were to do posthumous baptisms for my dead relatives. The fact that saemo and his/her parish prays for the soul of Gordon B. Hinckley disturbs me not at all.

But that may be because you are used to the idea of something like baptisms for the dead. And you have no problem with dead people still being able to make choices. It would be irrational, perhaps, if they had more knowledge than they do.

That is not even close to what Mormons do. Again, if you have to ugly up the analogy, it's a pretty good sign your logic is lacking.

I tried to make a more realistic analogy, rather than a more accurate analogy. All analogies are lacking. I don't know how "uglied up" the analogy really is. If we state that deceased people need our baptisms to make it to heaven, then that means that without it they are destined for .....

In this case, it strikes me as misplaced empathy.

The Church, possibly out of empathy, attempted to cater to a request not to baptize victims of the holocaust. Or maybe it was just expedient at the time. Who knows?

I empathize with those who are concerned, but I still do baptisms for the dead. (When the youth aren't hogging the facilities. Those zealous youth...

[Zakuska]

"Note how Christ grips the hands of those being resurrected out of hades. (8th picture down)"

WOW! Thanks Hannah

Eph. 4: 9-10

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

[Hannah Rebekah]

"Note how Christ grips the hands of those being resurrected out of hades. (8th picture down)"

WOW! Thanks Hannah

These themes are a common theme in Christian Art. Here are some more...if the links don't work I will edit them as it's been awhile since I've checked them:

Christ's descent into hell, hades, limbo, purgatory, the abyss, the underworld, the harrowing of hell

http://www.wga.hu/art/d/duccio/buoninse/ma...o_3/verso24.jpg

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i6_0080.jpg

http://www.nga.gov/image/a00007/a0000771.jpg

http://www.sv-luka.org/ikone/ikone342.jpg

http://www.comeandseeicons.com/pascha/htp01.htm

(different hand clasp)

http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico63.html

Christ’s hand gesture

http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?41427+0+0

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i6_0065b.jpg

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/Sb1-Glory.jpg

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/lviv/Gallery/Pictures/8.jpg

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/lviv/Gallery/Pictures/12.jpg

http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/Fra...es/ma187arl.jpg

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/pantokrator2.gif

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/HAnnaN.gif

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/johnmax.gif

Christ's ascension into heaven

http://www.aug.edu/augusta/iconography/clo.../ascension.html

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/chartreswest/ntympdet.jpg

Writings:

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?...Christ_in_hell/

Christ's descent into hell

• Was it fitting for Christ to descend into hell?
  
• Into which hell did He descend?
  
• Was He entirely in hell?
  
• Did He make any stay there?
  
• Did He deliver the Holy Fathers from hell?
  
• Did He deliver the lost from hell?
  
• Did He deliver the children who died in original sin?
  
• Did He deliver men from Purgatory?
  

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/resua1.htm

[LeSellers]

Hugh Nibley? You can't be serious. He would have been counted among the heretics by every Church Father.

In your biased opinion. Brother Nibley has more than held his own against attackers for decades. It is more likely that he was right than that you are.

Either you believe that Christ kept His promise, and that the Holy Spirit has guided His Church, or you don't. I see the evidence is clear that this is the case. In the preservation of the Sacraments, including Holy Orders, and the Church itself. That the Church survived, through times and places that you would think it should have not, is really quite miraculous.

Or one could believe that He is keeping His promise differently from the way you imagine it.

We might also ask what promise?

In order to believe as you do, you have to ignore a host of prophecies, many directly from the mouth Christ Himself, that the meridian Church would fail.

The things you mention (sacraments, "Holy Orders") are not explained in the scriptures. And to pretend that the Roman Catholic Church is the same as that that Jesus established 1975 years ago stretches credulity beyond any limit.

I understand that in order to be LDS you'd have to believe the opposite, and fight against God's Church in order to make yourselves relevant. That doesn't change the Truth.

We do not fight against God's Church, as we are that Church. But it is true: we do believe the opposite from you on this matter â?? we believe the scriptures, and the prophets God has called to do His work in modern times.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

If somebody started a list of deceased Mormons, and claimed that their list was "Those Destined for an Eternity in Hell", this would cause some concern. We would think it was erroneous, we would hopefully not be offended by it, but I think quite a few people would be concerned about it. I would prefer not to have my name go on that list after I die.

I cannot imagine anything any apostate church could do "for" me that would cause me to lose a millisecond's sleep.

I choose not to be offended. They choose to take offense.

That they are offended is nothing I can control, and the energy it would take is not worth the effort.

Sorry, let each man take responsibility for his own mental state. Others can't affect it anyway.

Lehi

[Hannah Rebekah]

http://www.comeandseeicons.com/pascha/htp01.htm

(This icon shows Christ standing over the broken gates of hell depicted as the lids of Adam & Eve's coffins. This icon by Nick Papas portrays Daniel and other Old Testament Prophets to our right and St. John the Baptist, King David and King Josiah to the left. The lost still lie bound in Hades. Adam and Eve are being lifted up from their graves. The locks and chains of death are broken.)

Filippino Lippi. The Apparition of the Virgin to St. Bernard. c.1486. Tempera on panel. Badia, Florence, Italy. Note how the two monks in the background greet each other with a thumb in the palm hand grip. These same types of grips are seen in numerous depictions of Christ's descent into hell, hades, limbo, purgatory.

~~~~~~~~~~

Angels rescue souls out of purgatory by clasping their hands & wrists to ascend into paradise with them. The souls being rescued are often depicted naked because their angelic guide put garments or robes on them as they ascend, in some cases, or before they reach the door to paradise.

www.christusrex.org/www2/...113v-m.jpg Les Tr

[abqfriend]

Part of the Trinitarian Nicene Creed and the shorter Apostles Creed is that:

"He descended into hell and on the third day He rose again."

-Thus much artwork may show this.

Artwork-is not the same as theology-but sometimes reflects theology-good and bad.

-What I get out of it- is that Christ is the victor over death.

Official Catholic understanding on the subject can be found here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm

-Carol

These themes are a common theme in Christian Art. Here are some more...if the links don't work I will edit them as it's been awhile since I've checked them:

[Scott Lloyd]

But that may be because you are used to the idea of something like baptisms for the dead. And you have no problem with dead people still being able to make choices. It would be irrational, perhaps, if they had more knowledge than they do.

The knowledge is readily accessible. Irrationality stemming from willful ignorance is hardly better than informed irrationality.

I tried to make a more realistic analogy, rather than a more accurate analogy. All analogies are lacking. I don't know how "uglied up" the analogy really is. If we state that deceased people need our baptisms to make it to heaven, then that means that without it they are destined for .....

I don't see your analogy as more realistic. More sensationalistic, perhaps. More negatively spun.

I know you're trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but you can only bend over backwards so for.

The Church, possibly out of empathy, attempted to cater to a request not to baptize victims of the holocaust. Or maybe it was just expedient at the time. Who knows?

Even in that effort, the Church never renounced the practice of baptism for the dead. It never agreed that the practice shows disrespect. Nor did it agree to stop performing ordinances for holocaust victims whose names were submitted by direct-line ancestors. The only thing it agreed to do was to stop incorporating names submitted by non-relatives.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Part of the Trinitarian Nicene Creed and the shorter Apostles Creed is that:

"He descended into hell and on the third day He rose again."

-Thus much artwork may show this.

Artwork-is not the same as theology-but sometimes reflects theology-good and bad.

-What I get out of it- is that Christ is the victor over death.

Official Catholic understanding on the subject can be found here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm

-Carol

Carol,

Thank you. I love early Christian Art work. It is beautiful and full of symbolism. Since the average person could not read nor were books available to them until the advent of the printing press, art was a way to teach and bring to mind theological messages and covenants. I appreciate the older religious traditions that have preserved this wonderful legacy of art. As an LDS Christian I am especially inspired when I see elements that are part of our tradition and our Temple tradition that fit with our understanding of the Ancient Christian Saints. I don't know if you have seen this article and maybe it will explain what I am talking about so I hope you don't find offense in our teachings as I believe there is much to learn from each other and much to admire and respect.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/shop/pdfSRC/21.1Wellnitz.pdf

Blessings,

HR

[abqfriend]

Thank You Hannah

-For the great article from BYU Studies. Although I am a financial contributor to BYU, I have never gotten into the studies section of their web site links.

A very good article-including pictures of mostly pre-Vatican II Churches interior architecture. There have been some changes that have occured in Catholic Church architecture since then-some not all that good in my opinion.

I have seen the seperate Baptistries of Catholic Churches in Florence and Pisa, Italy-the article alludes to Florence. The Baptismal doors there have several panels showing OT events by Lorenzo Ghilberti

-a very famous Renissance artisan.

Here is the link:

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/ghibert...bertinorth.html

Once again-thank you for the information.

-Carol

[MormonMason]

Because they fear we are right and actually converting people to the Church in the next life.

Depends upon the person with whom you speak. I have met quite a few who have that very reservation, Jews among them.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Thanks Carol for your link....beautiful artistry.

I had heard that the Nicene Creed, which followed the Apostle's Creed, removed the mention of the decent into hell...do you know if this is true and if so why did they do that? I have found that the Eastern Orthodox Churches still have this belief. Does the Catholic believe this? I found the quote below about it and was just wondering why it said, 'eventually controversial?' I don't know that much about the differences between the two and I would like to know more. I hope that sounded respectful...

This belief that Christ descended into hell is also captured in Peter's Pentecost sermon in Acts 2 (v. 27, 31). Consequently, the early Apostle's Creed had the, eventually controversial, mention of the descent into hell:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,

creator of heaven and earth.

and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit

born of the Virgin Mary.

suffered under Pontius Pilate,

was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

On the third day he rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand

of God the Father Almighty.

From thence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead...

John the Baptist Preaching in Hell

Early Christian Writings:

From the writings of the Church Fathers during the 3rd century, Origen of Alexandria, a student scholar of Clement of Alexandria, wrote that John the Baptist had died before Christ, "so that he might descend to the lower regions and announce [preach] his coming. For everywhere the witness and forerunner of Jesus is John, being born before and dying shortly before the Son of God, so that not only to those of his generation but likewise to those who lived before Christ should liberation from the death be preached, and that he might everywhere prepare a people trained to receive the Lord."

Hippolytus, wrote that John the Baptist had died first that he might prepare the souls in the spirit world for the gospel. John, â??first preached to those in Hades, becoming a forerunner there when he was put to death by Herod, that there too he might intimate that the Saviour would descend to ransom the souls of the saints from the hand of death.â?

Later, a medieval Easter drama, the "Harrowing of Hell," John descends first, then is there to greet Christ when Christ descended.

[Stargazer]

Posting this again-as my first got lost.

I personally would not pray for the soul of any deceased who is LDS. That would be imposing my religious views on another faith tradition.

And how, exactly, would it do that? They can hear you over there? And not only this, but I was under the impression that according to some faith traditions, praying for them who have died is believed to do the deceased some good -- or why bother, right? So, praying for the soul of a Mormon, who presumably is going to hell (or at least limbo) for not being Catholic, might possibly improve their situation. So, not praying for them has the effect of consigning them to hell. That's nice of you!

Should my Curch pray in such a manner-and was asked to stop such a practice-my guess is they would oblige.

Hmmm. Maybe. Maybe not. But if they've prayed once, the damage's done, so there's little point of stopping. Unless repetition has a salutary effect that a singular prayer does not. How many times is sufficient, I wonder?

In the case of the late Gordon B. Hinckley-whom I greatly admired-I would pray for his family and the LDS Church at large in their time of need.

That's nice of you. Thanks!

Praying for someone in public or private is quite different than requesting the records of a deceased Catholic from the Catholic Church then baptizing them by proxy by a temple recommend member in a Temple ordinance of the LDS Church.

Different? How? According to what you have written here, praying for someone is meant to have essentially the same effect as baptizing them by proxy. So if Catholics pray for the souls of those who otherwise would go to hell or purgatory or whatever without such prayer then it appears that you and we are trying to do the same thing. Just by different means. Why do you demand that we stop doing what we regard as efficacious -- and do what you do, presumably, which we regard as not efficacious?

Catholics do not pray for someone to "see the error of their earthly ways." They too well already know them-as they have been Judged. This is some of the "pain" of purgatory. Catholics pray and offer Masses for their deceased in Purgatory in our hope and prayers and vicarious good works that this person will go to heaven. This Christian person will never go to hell, but he will progress to heaven.

My non-member agnostic father told me not to have him baptized in the temple after he died. I said OK, and then later turned around and did it anyway. Why? Because if he were right and in death he ceased to exist, he'd never know it happened, but if I were right and the ordinance could have been efficacious for him, I think I would be very very very remiss not to have taken care of it. The fact that he rejected the Church during this life (he politely refused to hear the missionaries when I sent them), suggests that perhaps he had his chance and missed it. But I am not his judge. The Lord is. So I took care of him as best I could and left everything else in the hands of the Lord.

[Stargazer]

A Mormon baptism in order to be with God.

This is annoying, you know? You are offended because, as you say, we insist only a Mormon baptism will suffice to for one to be with God. While your church insists that only a Catholic baptism will suffice.

And you think WE'RE being offensive?

Please.

BTW, I am not offended that the RCC believes this. They're entitled. I just expect the return favor.

[JDave]

Even in that effort, the Church never renounced the practice of baptism for the dead. It never agreed that the practice shows disrespect. Nor did it agree to stop performing ordinances for holocaust victims whose names were submitted by direct-line ancestors. The only thing it agreed to do was to stop incorporating names submitted by non-relatives.

Sounds like the empathy that I am calling for. No bending over backwards required.

[saemo]

This is annoying, you know? You are offended because, as you say, we insist only a Mormon baptism will suffice to for one to be with God. While your church insists that only a Catholic baptism will suffice.

And you think WE'RE being offensive?

Please.

BTW, I am not offended that the RCC believes this. They're entitled. I just expect the return favor.

So don't be Catholic. It is your choice, IN THIS LIFE.

[abqfriend]

The Catholic Church accepts any Baptism from any Trinitarian Christian group including Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.

Catholics do no accept LDS Baptism

---and equally LDS do not accept Catholic or other Christian Baptisms from any Trinitarian Christian group.

This is annoying, you know? You are offended because, as you say, we insist only a Mormon baptism will suffice to for one to be with God. While your church insists that only a Catholic baptism will suffice.

And you think WE'RE being offensive?

Please.

BTW, I am not offended that the RCC believes this. They're entitled. I just expect the return favor.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sounds like the empathy that I am calling for. No bending over backwards required.

For most of our critics on this matter, that's not good enough.

[Scott Lloyd]

So don't be Catholic. It is your choice, IN THIS LIFE.

Thank you for that permission.

Now, if you'll just let us practice our religion in peace â?? including the performance of harmless vicarious temple rites for the deceased â?? we'll all be fine.

[thesometimesaint]

abqfriend:

Small correction. We do not accept baptism from ANY other church.

[abqfriend]

Thank you-you made my point even stronger.

-Carol

abqfriend:

Small correction. We do not accept baptism from ANY other church.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thank you-you made my point even stronger.

-Carol

I'm not precisely certain what your point is. I, for one, have never been greatly bothered by the fact that other faiths do not accept Mormon baptisms for their own purposes. After all, they were never intended to serve such purposes.

[Anijen]

I am apathetic towards other churchs concern. At most I find it silly that they even care. If they believed their church was true and correct then what we do as LDS does not matter, but still they mettle.

I agree with Mormon Mason when he replied to Zakuska;

Because they fear we are right and actually converting people to the Church in the next life.

Depends upon the person with whom you speak. I have met quite a few who have that very reservation, Jews among them.

What else could it be? They are just whining, yes I said whining and could careless about hurting your feelings. Yes, I know that's not very Christian of me but I have never claimed to be perfect and until that day comes I will just say how I feel now.

We as LDS will never change this BFD one of our fundamental doctrines and yield to outsiders who have been offended.

Oh I'm sorry that offends you well let me change heaven forbid I offend someone anyone... cant you see the silliness?

I am offended about transubstantiation please stop that unholy and non scriptural doctrine. If this were true your church is not going to stop and I really am not offended that you believe this. I sleep at night and I have not visited even one RCC message board to complain or voice my opinion.

[JDave]

For most of our critics on this matter, that's not good enough.

I don't empathize because anyone demands it from me. Empathy should not be confused with capitulating or being weak.