Baptisms For The Dead

[abqfriend]

LDS members are free to use any public records in doing what they deem appropriate for their religious tradition.

-Carol

Isn't that exactly what Mormons are doing... in a more literal way... washing away their sins in the blood of the Lamb (ie the waters of Baptism)?

[Zakuska]

You are doing more than that, you are enforcing a requirement that an already baptized Christian must accept a Mormon baptism in order to be with God.

We are not enforcing anything on the deceased.

Neither are we. If the Deceased reject it we wasted our time. But if we are right it will mean a world of difference.

It sounds to me like you are affraid that we just might be right.

[thesometimesaint]

Saemo:

Dead Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Atheists, Muslims, Hindi, or any other beliefs I may have missed, are not required to accept LDS Baptism for them. They are free to choose. God will judge them on what they did with what they believed. My mumbling a few prays for them after they are dead will have absolutely NO effect on them if they don't want it to. Perfect Agency.

You deciding whom I may say a prayer about, and whom I may not is an abrogation of my right to practice my religion as I want, and the dead's right to their Agency.

[saemo]

Neither are we. If the Deceased reject it we wasted our time. But if we are right it will mean a world of diference.

Yes, I do agree, it is a waste of time.

And also agree with abqfriend that you are free to practice your religious tradition.

[selek]

You are doing more than that, you are enforcing a requirement that an already baptized Christian must accept a Mormon baptism in order to be with God. (And, using our baptismal records in the process!)

We are not enforcing anything on the deceased.

Nonsense; you feel- and have made it clear- that only a "Catholic-approved" baptism will allow people to return to God.

The only functional difference between your ideology and ours is that we offer them a choice.

We presume that there is hope for them yet whereas you simply cast them off as lost causes doomed to burn and writhe in fiery torment for all eternity.

[bluebell]

You are doing more than that, you are enforcing a requirement that an already baptized Christian must accept a Mormon baptism in order to be with God. (And, using our baptismal records in the process!)

We are not enforcing anything on the deceased.

I'm confused. What are LDS people enforcing on the deceased? In our belief, if a deceased Catholic is baptized after death, but they want to remain Catholic, then they are free to do so and nothing changes for them.

It's akin to fixing up a plate of food for someone because we believe they are hungery, but we don't make them eat it. We offer it and they are free to eat or say they are already full and don't want anything else.

So again, what are we enforcing upon the deceased people exactly in your understanding?

[Scott Lloyd]

We do not believe that anyone has an automatic pass to Heaven. All sin.

We are not asking the deceased if they want to be Catholic. We are not asking them anything, at all. We are asking for God to recognize the good the person has done and to have mercy re: their sins.

You are seeking divine blessings of mercy and salvation for someone who needs them. Which is what Mormons do when they perform vicarious temple ordinances. In fundamental concept, there is very little difference between the two. Yet you complain about the one while viewing the other as perfectly reasonable. Ergo, a double standard.

You think? I believe that God will judge you, for who you are, and you may very well be in Heaven. If I were to pray for you, it would be that God judges you with mercy and forgiveness. There is no belief on my part that you need to believe anything of the Catholic Church, at all, in order for my prayer to be heard.

Even assuming there is no truth to the Mormon faith, a person who embraces Catholicism is not harmed in the least by the performance of what Mormons view as essential ordinances of salvation. If you believe these ordinances are not valid, fine, but it's nothing to get "livid" over.

LDS on the other hand believe that a good Catholic, who leads a good life needs to accept a baptism that is in direct conflict with the beliefs they held throughout their lives, in order to be with God. How is this less presumptious?

I repeat, no deceased person is required to accept a proxy ordinance.

No you may not assume...as it is clear here that you do indeed find our prayers for Pres. Hinckley offensive, as you indicate below....

I have repeatedly stated the contrary. This is a blatant misrepresentation of my position. You are bearing false witness; stop it.

What I have stated is that you are inconsistent and exhibiting a double standard when you attack Mormons for doing essentially what you are doing in praying for the soul of a deceased person. I don't see how I can state it any more clearly than that.

[saemo]

Saemo:

Dead Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Atheists, Muslims, Hindi, or any other beliefs I may have missed, are not required to accept LDS Baptism for them. They are free to choose. God will judge them on what they did with what they believed. My mumbling a few prays for them after they are dead will have absolutely NO effect on them if they don't want it to. Perfect Agency.

You deciding whom I may say a prayer about, and whom I may not is an abrogation of my right to practice my religion as I want, and the dead's right to their Agency.

fine.

[bluebell]

Yes, I do agree, it is a waste of time.

No time is wasted that is spent doing the will of God.

[saemo]

So again, what are we enforcing upon the deceased people exactly in your understanding?

A Mormon baptism in order to be with God.

[LeSellers]

LDS members are free to use any public records in doing what they deem appropriate for their religious tradition.

Does that include the many cases where a diocese has given its records to the local library?

It seems, based on what I have seen, that the Catholic Church doesn't care a tremendous lot abotu who can see its records, as long as it's not us.

Again, if there is anything you all believe might be helpful to the dead, but you are not doing it, it seems that you are being selfish. What we do, if you are right, as you claim, has absolutely no effect on the dead. But, again if you are right, and you do not do whatever you can for others who did not have the advantage of your Catholicism, I wonder why you do not.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

Yes, I do agree, it is a waste of time.

And also agree with abqfriend that you are free to practice your religious tradition.

Paul would disagree with you...

If the dead rise not at all then why are they baptized for the dead.

[saemo]

I repeat, no deceased person is required to accept a proxy ordinance.

What do you believe happens to a person who rejects your baptism?

[Scott Lloyd]

You are doing more than that, you are enforcing a requirement that an already baptized Christian must accept a Mormon baptism in order to be with God. (And, using our baptismal records in the process!)We are not enforcing anything on the deceased.

What part of "The deceased may accept or reject the ordinance" do you fail to understand?

What do you believe happens to a person who rejects your baptism?

I leave the judgment to God. I am only commanded to extend the opportunity by performing the ordinance.

[saemo]

Paul would disagree with you...

If the dead rise not at all then why are they baptized for the dead.

Paul never taught that the dead should be baptized. He was teaching about Salvation, and eternal life, to a group of people who believed in neither. That a group of people were practicing this does not imply it was ever commanded by God. As it was not, and there is no indication that it ever was.

[Scott Lloyd]

A Mormon baptism in order to be with God.

If we're wrong, then the deceased person suffers absolutely no harm by our action.

[bluebell]

A Mormon baptism in order to be with God.

How are we enforcing that baptism upon them?

If we are really wrong as you believe, then what is being enforced upon them by our work for the dead? Do you really believe that the Catholics who have died and already been baptized in LDS temples have been affected at all by those baptisms?

If you believe that they have not been affect in the least by those baptisms, then again, what exactly are we enforcing upon them?

[Scott Lloyd]

Paul never taught that the dead should be baptized. He was teaching about Salvation, and eternal life, to a group of people who believed in neither. That a group of people were practicing this does not imply it was ever commanded by God. As it was not, and there is no indication that it ever was.

This makes no sense. If it was not a valid practice, why would Paul use it as an example in support of his teaching about resurrection?

[saemo]

What part of "The deceased may accept or reject the ordinance" do you fail to understand?

It is a pointless comment. If you did not believe that it is required for a person's salvation, why do it at all?

I leave the judgment to God.

Which requires no work to be done for the dead. As a Catholic, I could never say one prayer for the dead. We do so because we believe God hears our prayers, not because we believe it is required for that persons salvation.

I am only commanded to extend the opportunity by performing the ordinance.

fine.

[bluebell]

What do you believe happens to a person who rejects your baptism?

What we believe has no power to affect the dead unless what we believe is true, right?

So if we are wrong, our beliefs are incapable of impacting anyone else.

[saemo]

This makes no sense. If it was not a valid practice, why would Paul use it as an example in support of his teaching about resurrection?

He never sites it as valid or invalid. And never sites it as NECESSARY. It is a practice that arose, it was never taught.

[saemo]

What we believe has no power to affect the dead unless what we believe is true, right?

Ummm, no. I can completely believe that the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ has no meaning, this does not make it so.

Mormons use a double-think that has no sense to it. It are Mormons who are baptizing the dead, it are Mormons who believe it has an effect, it is by these actions that we know you are presuming our dead need your actions in order to be saved.

They don't.

So if we are wrong, our beliefs are incapable of impacting anyone else.

So, why do you have these beliefs at all?

[Zakuska]

Paul never taught that the dead should be baptized. He was teaching about Salvation, and eternal life, to a group of people who believed in neither. That a group of people were practicing this does not imply it was ever commanded by God. As it was not, and there is no indication that it ever was.

Your own Church fathers would disagree with you....

At the beginning of the fifth century Epiphanius reports:

From Asia and Gaul has reached us the account [tradition] of a certain practice, namely that when any die without baptism among them, they baptize others in their place and in their name, so that, rising in the resurrection, they will not have to pay the penalty of having failed to receive baptism, but rather will become subject to the authority of the Creator of the World. For this reason this tradition which has reached us is said to be the very thing to which the Apostle himself refers when he says, "If the dead rise not at all, what shall they do who are baptized for the dead?"

Baptizing by proxy for the dead was a wide spread practice in the early church, All the way from France to Babylon.

[thesometimesaint]

saemo:

No we do not baptize the dead. Nor do we dig up dead Popes in order to excommunicate them.

We baptize in someone else usually a Deacon, or a Laural given the DEAD's name (usually just name on a monitor). Takes all of about 10 seconds.

[bluebell]

Ummm, no. I can completely believe that the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ has no meaning, this does not make it so.

That's what i said Saemo-i would only make it so if it was actually true.

Mormons use a double-think that has no sense to it. It are Mormons who are baptizing the dead, it are Mormons who believe it has an effect, it is by these actions that we know you are presuming our dead need your actions in order to be saved.

They don't.

Of course WE believe they need those things-but if we are wrong, what are we enforcing upon them exactly?

I've asked this question a few times and i dont' think you've ever answered me yet. You have claimed that we are enforcing baptism upon them, but since you don't believe our temple work has any power, how do you think it is enforcing baptism on them?

So, why do you have these beliefs at all?

Because we believe they are right-the same reason you have your beliefs. If you or i are wrong though, then what the LDS or Catholic church teaches doesn't mean beans in the whole scheme of things.

The bottom line, if LDS are wrong, the the work they do in the temple has no ability to impact the deceased in any way. So, if you are convinced that we are wrong, why do you care what we do with a deceased person's name in the temple? What impact do our actions have on that deceased person that you would be concerned about?