First Things

[consiglieri]

You guys are still going at this?

Rotsa ruck!

I think it was I who mentioned this morning that a brief detour to Macabbees would be in the offing.

"I perceive, sir, that thou art a prophet."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rommelator]

This weekend the local library had a used book sale and I picked up some biblical commentaries for mucho cheap (or, for Dan Peterson, sehr billig). Here is what some of them said on the subject of 1 Corinthians 15:29:

The Interpreters Bible Commentary volume 10 pages 240-241:

Apparently when some "outsiders" died without having been baptized, living persons had been baptized on their behalf. Some modern interpreters have been unwilling to believe that such a superstitious practice could have grown up in a Church founded by Paul. Sclatter has proposed that "baptize" is used here as a figure for death (Luke 12:50), and that Paul is conceiving of a ministry on behalf of the dead, as in 1 Pet. 4:6. That is very unlikely. We do not know that Paul approved of the custom, nor is it certain that he was entirely fair to the point of view attacked here and in the following verses.

From the New Oxford Annotated Bible page 1395:

A practice otherwise unknown. Presumably Christians accepted baptism in the names of their loved ones who had died without being baptized in order that the latter might share in the final resurrection. Without advocating this practice, Paul makes it a point in his argument.

Interesting, to say the least.

Of course, let us not forget what Hugh Nibley and John Tvedtnes have written on this subject.

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=67

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/book...&chapid=104

[LDSMusic483]

You guys are still going at this?

Rotsa ruck!

I think it was I who mentioned this morning that a brief detour to Macabbees would be in the offing.

"I perceive, sir, that thou art a prophet."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes, that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the call to macabbees.

[Servant]

So a call to a apocryphal book (pre-christ) and then individuals outside of the bible. Not working for me, sorry. Remember, when you make a claim that your doctrine has more biblical evidence, you should stick to the bible for your sources, and books which everyone agree's should be in the bible.

didnt you mention about the ECF as well i mean did you mention to bring up that? maybe it was someone else who did if so sorry? ok you want biblical but you wont find it in YOUR bible because YOUR bible the books were taken out..in the 1500s...read 2 Macc. 12;39-46...

yeah forget about what the early christians believed forget what the apostles believed...i never knew that the LDS believed in the bible alone theory...

anyways i do have a question for you...when you baptize the dead is their any sort of "prayer" while doing it like baptizing the living?

[LDSMusic483]

didnt you mention about the ECF as well i mean did you mention to bring up that? maybe it was someone else who did if so sorry? ok you want biblical but you wont find it in YOUR bible because YOUR bible the books were taken out..in the 1500s...read 2 Macc. 12;39-46...

yeah forget about what the early christians believed forget what the apostles believed...i never knew that the LDS believed in the bible alone theory...

anyways i do have a question for you...when you baptize the dead is their any sort of "prayer" while doing it like baptizing the living?

Consig was the was the one who said he figured there would be a call to Maccabees before all was said and done. He was saying so in an "when all else fails, turn to shakey scripture" kinda way. You're on an LDS board. If you want any credence, you need to stick with those things that we can both point to. Or would you rather me say that JS taught about Baptism for the dead quite in detail in the D&C so there is MUCH greater scriptural reference for that then prayers for the dead. Would you accept that? Didn't think so. Likewise, the apocrypha does not hold much water with us either.

Next, you have not shown any apostles believed it. You have only given reference to leaders after the apostolic era.

The baptismal ordinance isn't really a prayer. It is not addressed to God the Father, but done in His name, and Christs name, and In the Holy Ghosts name. It is in no way a prayer as you purport the prayers for the dead.

[Servant]

Consig was the was the one who said he figured there would be a call to Maccabees before all was said and done. He was saying so in an "when all else fails, turn to shakey scripture" kinda way. You're on an LDS board. If you want any credence, you need to stick with those things that we can both point to. Or would you rather me say that JS taught about Baptism for the dead quite in detail in the D&C so there is MUCH greater scriptural reference for that then prayers for the dead. Would you accept that? Didn't think so. Likewise, the apocrypha does not hold much water with us either.

Next, you have not shown any apostles believed it. You have only given reference to leaders after the apostolic era.

The baptismal ordinance isn't really a prayer. It is not addressed to God the Father, but done in His name, and Christs name, and In the Holy Ghosts name. It is in no way a prayer as you purport the prayers for the dead.

all i am asking (it is a yes or no question that is all)....is there a prayer said during the service of baptism for the dead or for the living...I remember like two or three prayers said at my lds baptism...never been to a baptism for the dead ....but i would think there would be one....so is there? (it is a yes or no question)....so you say there is no prayers what so ever for the dead? at all? ok...well then when you baptize the dead all you do is "in the name of the father, son and holy spirit" and wala the dead is baptized? without anything else to say in the ceremony? no recieve the spirit...or no nothing???

"Next, you have not shown any apostles believed it. You have only given reference to leaders after the apostolic era. " have you ever read any ECF who knew the apostles and were taught by them? I highly recommend it

[bluebell]

all i am asking (it is a yes or no question that is all)....is there a prayer said during the service of baptism for the dead or for the living...I remember like two or three prayers said at my lds baptism...never been to a baptism for the dead ....but i would think there would be one....so is there? (it is a yes or no question)....so you say there is no prayers what so ever for the dead? at all? ok...well then when you baptize the dead all you do is "in the name of the father, son and holy spirit" and wala the dead is baptized? without anything else to say in the ceremony? no recieve the spirit...or no nothing???

"Next, you have not shown any apostles believed it. You have only given reference to leaders after the apostolic era. " have you ever read any ECF who knew the apostles and were taught by them? I highly recommend it

The wording for the ordinance for the baptism for the dead is exactly like the wording for the ordinance for the baptism of the living except that it begins with the name of the living person actually being baptized and includes wording that says that they are being baptized for 'so and so' (deceased person's full name) who is dead.

At your LDS baptism, there would have been an opening prayer for the program (following the song just like all LDS programs) and a closing prayer when it was done (again, just like all LDS functions). That's the program though, and not the actual baptism. You can get baptized with an opening and closing prayer.

The baptismal prayer (yes, it's called a prayer and generally people close their eyes while it's being said) is pretty simple and takes less than a minute. It is such-

Your name is said and then it is followed with, "Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

Then you are immersed in the water, brought back up and generally hugging ensues while the spectators beam with joy.

[Servant]

The wording for the ordinance for the baptism for the dead is exactly like the wording for the ordinance for the baptism of the living except that it begins with the name of the living person actually being baptized and includes wording that says that they are being baptized for 'so and so' (deceased person's full name) who is dead.

At your LDS baptism, there would have been an opening prayer for the program (following the song just like all LDS programs) and a closing prayer when it was done (again, just like all LDS functions). That's the program though, and not the actual baptism. You can get baptized with an opening and closing prayer.

The baptismal prayer (yes, it's called a prayer and generally people close their eyes while it's being said) is pretty simple and takes less than a minute. It is such-

Your name is said and then it is followed with, "Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

Then you are immersed in the water, brought back up and generally hugging ensues while the spectators beam with joy.

no the prayer is not the actual baptism that is not what i was getting at...but you answered it...so there is prayers during the service (this has nothing to do with the baptism itself)...but the prayers during the "program", correct?

prayer, name, baptism, prayer...ect ect...whatever, correct? i want to be sure im getting this...

[Flyonthewall]

The only time I am aware of LDS saying a prayer for someone that is dead, is at their funeral.

[bluebell]

no the prayer is not the actual baptism that is not what i was getting at...but you answered it...so there is prayers during the service (this has nothing to do with the baptism itself)...but the prayers during the "program", correct?

prayer, name, baptism, prayer...ect ect...whatever, correct? i want to be sure im getting this...

There is if people want to have a baptismal program-and most do. There are also two talks (one before the baptism and one after usually), a general welcome to the ward speech and refreshments when it's all done.

Typical LDS program.

If someone doesn't want all the hoopla then it's just the baptism and that's it.

[Servant]

The only time I am aware of LDS saying a prayer for someone that is dead, is at their funeral.

didnt even think of that....thank you...but as the other poster mentioned prayers during the service program of baptism also....thank you...

There is if people want to have a baptismal program-and most do. There are also two talks (one before the baptism and one after usually), a general welcome to the ward speech and refreshments when it's all done.Typical LDS program. If someone doesn't want all the hoopla then it's just the baptism and that's it.

I wouldnt see why one wouldnt want one considering it is a purification, right?thank you thank you thank you...i do appreciate this very much...no different from us praying for the dead...someone mention the similarities (cant remember who im sorry)...and im seeing it more and more and more...

[bluebell]

I wouldnt see why one wouldnt want one considering it is a purification, right?thank you thank you thank you...i do appreciate this very much...no different from us praying for the dead...someone mention the similarities (cant remember who im sorry)...and im seeing it more and more and more...

You lost me here.

How is a baptism program 'purification'? It's just the communities way of participating in a personal experience and has nothing to do with the ordinance itself. Also, how is a baptismal program the same as praying for the dead? Everyone at the baptismal program is alive.

[Servant]

You lost me here.

How is a baptism program 'purification'? It's just the communities way of participating in a personal experience and has nothing to do with the ordinance itself. Also, how is a baptismal program the same as praying for the dead? Everyone at the baptismal program is alive.

why would you baptize the dead? is the same reason why we pray for the dead...

there are prayers (dont know why you call it a program...a prayer is not a program...a program is what will be happening at an event well that is what i understand it as anyways but anyways) said with your own words (optional) and as flyonthewall said there is prayers at funerals...why are their prayers at funerals?

let me ask you something....what does prayer mean to you especially when you are praying to the Father? is that just a program?

maybe you need to define what you mean by "program"...I think im having issues now on that...prayer is just a program? then why even bother praying if it is just a program just sounds like a routine or something...does prayer mean anything when you do use it in the service or are they just..............words?

[Pahoran]

why would you baptize the dead?

Point of order: we do not "baptize the dead." We baptize for the dead. We baptize the living on behalf of those who died without the opportunity to receive baptism from one having the proper Priesthood authority. Which, of course, means that we exactly fit Paul's description of hoi baptizomenoi huper ton nekron, those being baptized on behalf of the dead.

Please keep that in mind.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Servant]

Point of order: we do not "baptize the dead." We baptize for the dead. We baptize the living on behalf of those who died without the opportunity to receive baptism from one having the proper Priesthood authority. Which, of course, means that we exactly fit Paul's description of hoi baptizomenoi huper ton nekron, those being baptized on behalf of the dead.

Please keep that in mind.

Regards,

Pahoran

im sorry I knew that....i didnt mean baptize the dead...i wasnt meaning that you guys go in graves and dig them up just to baptize them...i meant for the dead....just like we pray for the dead and not to the dead...

i knew that...sorry i wasnt clear and made an error thanks

[bluebell]

why would you baptize the dead? is the same reason why we pray for the dead...

I'm sure it is.

I just didn't know that intent was what was being debated.

there are prayers (dont know why you call it a program...a prayer is not a program...a program is what will be happening at an event well that is what i understand it as anyways but anyways)

I said the prayers were part of the program. An opening prayer to open the program and a closing prayer to close it. The same way that their is an opening prayer at the ward Christmas party. The prayer is not the program, it is one aspect of the program.

said with your own words (optional) and as flyonthewall said there is prayers at funerals...why are their prayers at funerals?

There are prayers at the funeral program. LDS pray at pretty much all events-whether it's the ward basketball game, a baptism, a church party, a children's activity or a funeral. It's our way of doing everything in the name of the Son.

The prayers at funeral would most generally be to ask for comfort for the family who has lost someone and safety for those traveling and such. I've personally never been at a funeral where the deceased person was prayed for.

let me ask you something....what does prayer mean to you especially when you are praying to the Father? is that just a program?

You've so misunderstood what i was saying that i can't even answer this question.

maybe you need to define what you mean by "program"...I think im having issues now on that...prayer is just a program? then why even bother praying if it is just a program just sounds like a routine or something...does prayer mean anything when you do use it in the service or are they just..............words?

Hopefully, i've cleared this up in my above statements.

[Servant]

I said the prayers were part of the program. An opening prayer to open the program and a closing prayer to close it. The same way that their is an opening prayer at the ward Christmas party. The prayer is not the program, it is one aspect of the program.

at a baptism FOR the dead the prayers before and after...would you consider that kind of like prayers for the dead?

The prayers at funeral would most generally be to ask for comfort for the family who has lost someone and safety for those traveling and such. I've personally never been at a funeral where the deceased person was prayed for.

so at a funeral you dont ask the father to take the departed in his arms or anything like that? why?

and yes you did clear it up...you just confused me I thought you were calling the prayer the program or something like that...but anyways i understand..

[bluebell]

at a baptism FOR the dead the prayers before and after...would you consider that kind of like prayers for the dead?]

There aren't opening and closing prayers at the baptisms for the dead.

so at a funeral you dont ask the father to take the departed in his arms or anything like that?

No.

why?

Why would we?

Would it change the will of God any?

[Flyonthewall]

didnt even think of that....thank you...but as the other poster mentioned prayers during the service program of baptism also....thank you...I wouldnt see why one wouldnt want one considering it is a purification, right?thank you thank you thank you...i do appreciate this very much...no different from us praying for the dead...someone mention the similarities (cant remember who im sorry)...and im seeing it more and more and more...

Let me clarify about a prayer for the dead I mentioned. There is not a prayer specifically for the dead, but the deceased may be included or mentioned in one of the prayers given, opening or closing prayer...sort of like "please bless so-and-so who has ended their mortality" or something to that effect.

There is also a dedicatory prayer for the final resting place for the body of the deceased, which is as close to a prayer for the deceased as we get, but it's not quite the same.

This is the basic format of dedicating a grave.

Dedicating Graves

A person who dedicates a grave must hold the Melchizedek Priesthood and must be authorized by the priesthood officer who conducts the service.

To dedicate a grave, he:

1. Addresses Heavenly Father.

2. States that he is dedicating the grave by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

3. Dedicates and consecrates the burial plot as the resting place for the body of the deceased.

4. Where appropriate, prays that the place will be hallowed and protected until the Resurrection.

5. Asks the Lord to comfort the family and expresses other thoughts as the Spirit directs.

6. Closes in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Servant]

There aren't opening and closing prayers at the baptisms for the dead.

wait...you said this:

I said the prayers were part of the program. An opening prayer to open the program and a closing prayer to close it. The same way that their is an opening prayer at the ward Christmas party. The prayer is not the program, it is one aspect of the program.

which is it? there is prayers or there is not any prayers????

Why would we?

Would it change the will of God any?

do you believe that God has mercy?

and what are your thoughts about the communion of saints us being one and death wouldnt seperate us from Christ Rom 8;35-39 and with that said in 2 The. 1;11 it says "we will ALWAYS pray for you"....does that mean that when one dies nobody will pray for them? Always means always...on going...

all the funerals I ever been to...ever been to...Catholic, baptist, and not sure what the donimation was...it was at a friends parents funeral and not sure what they believed...and somone would pray for the departed....

out of respect for the dead and for the hope and the mercey that God has...

[Lady Jane]

Servant the prayers you are asking about are only given for LIVING baptisms. Not baptisms for the dead. The programs BB is discussing are for LIVING baptisms.

VR

[bluebell]

wait...you said this:

which is it? there is prayers or there is not any prayers????

Sorry if i confused you. I said that there were prayers at the baptismal programs for the living.

The only thing i said about baptisms for the dead is that the wording for the ordinance is pretty much exactly the same. I thought it was obvious that there would not be a 'program' for a deceased person being baptised.

do you believe that God has mercy?

Absolutely.

But i don't believe there is anything i can say that will impact the salvation of another person. I don't get the mindset that God would offer salvation to someone who was prayed for, but would deny salvation for that same person if no one prayed for them.

I totally understand praying for people who are alive, but praying for someone who is dead to be saved, i don't get.

and what are your thoughts about the communion of saints us being one and death wouldnt seperate us from Christ Rom 8;35-39 and with that said in 2 The. 1;11 it says "we will ALWAYS pray for you"....does that mean that when one dies nobody will pray for them? Always means always...on going...

I think that death cannot separate us from Christ.

And i think it might be a mistake to try to make paul's pronouncements of 'praying always' as being literal. Do you believe that Paul will still be praying for them a 100,000 million years from now when all this mortality is totally and completely done? Why would paul need to keep praying forever for them?

In ex. the Lord says that the shewbread would 'always' be before Him. He obviously didn't mean literally though since Christ fulfilled that part of the law of Moses and it's not required anymore.

I think it makes sense that paul was speaking about mortality.

out of respect for the dead and for the hope and the mercey that God has...

So, it's just symbolic and not expected to actually impact the person's standing before God at all?

[tomfoolery]

wait...you said this:

which is it? there is prayers or there is not any prayers????

do you believe that God has mercy?

and what are your thoughts about the communion of saints us being one and death wouldnt seperate us from Christ Rom 8;35-39 and with that said in 2 The. 1;11 it says "we will ALWAYS pray for you"....does that mean that when one dies nobody will pray for them? Always means always...on going...

all the funerals I ever been to...ever been to...Catholic, baptist, and not sure what the donimation was...it was at a friends parents funeral and not sure what they believed...and somone would pray for the departed....

out of respect for the dead and for the hope and the mercey that God has...

I'll just jump in here to respond in part to you. You're operating under the idea that baptisms for the dead and normal baptisms are done in the same place and under the same format. The prayers are very similar. It is done by immersion into a font. But that's about it. Baptism for the dead is an ordinance performed in the temple. Normal baptisms are done in a local ward font or even in rivers, if no font is available.

At a baptism, there is also a program performed for the benefit of the newly baptised member. There is no program performed for baptisms for the dead. After all, the ordinance isn't fully complete until the person on the other side accepts it, which they may not. It's a proxy ordinance and the dead are free to accept or reject it.

If they want a program put on for them, then they're free to take it up with their church leaders on the other side.

I hope that helps clear up some of your confusion.

edited for grammatical errors (though they still abound, I'm sure)

also edited because I was too slow in posting and some of this has already been covered.

[Servant]

Sorry if i confused you. I said that there were prayers at the baptismal programs for the living.

The only thing i said about baptisms for the dead is that the wording for the ordinance is pretty much exactly the same. I thought it was obvious that there would not be a 'program' for a deceased person being baptised.

hmm....for some reason i thought you said for the departed was optional...but most do or were you just talking about the baptism for the living....so let me get this straight for the baptism for the dead there is no what so ever any prayers?

Absolutely.

But i don't believe there is anything i can say that will impact the salvation of another person. I don't get the mindset that God would offer salvation to someone who was prayed for, but would deny salvation for that same person if no one prayed for them.

I totally understand praying for people who are alive, but praying for someone who is dead to be saved, i don't get.

then i guess you dont believe in the scripture that states that death wouldnt seperate us from Christ...do you believe that we are communion of Saints? do you believe in the scriptures such as Romans 12;5 we are one body in Christ, indiv. parts of one another (this doesnt exclude anybody including the saints in heaven)..Rom 8;35-39 death cannot separate us from Jesus...

why would you only pray for the living and not for the dead (what i mean dead is the ones in purgatory comparson to your "spirit world")? wouldnt you want the souls in the "spirit world" to grasp the teachings so they can enter Heaven? why stop just for the living?

I think that death cannot separate us from Christ.

And i think it might be a mistake to try to make paul's pronouncements of 'praying always' as being literal.

oh so you dont think he was serious like he was kidding or something?...he meant always....if he wasnt serious he would of clerified it and said well not always as in forever...but he didnt...also it is said in Col. 4;3, 1 Thess 5;25 "pray for us"...Eph. 6;18-19 making supplication for all the saints and for me....

Do you believe that Paul will still be praying for them a 100,000 million years from now when all this mortality is totally and completely done? Why would paul need to keep praying forever for them?

yes I do...for the same reason that the angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God Rev. 5;8

it says offer prayers, petitions for all men (again this isnt excluding the ones that passed away) 1 Tim 2;1-7

In ex. the Lord says that the shewbread would 'always' be before Him. He obviously didn't mean literally though since Christ fulfilled that part of the law of Moses and it's not required anymore.

I think it makes sense that paul was speaking about mortality.

So, it's just symbolic and not expected to actually impact the person's standing before God at all?

no....a prayer is not symbolic it never was and never will...prayer is an action...

[Servant]

I'll just jump in here to respond in part to you. You're operating under the idea that baptisms for the dead and normal baptisms are done in the same place and under the same format. The prayers are very similar. It is done by immersion into a font. But that's about it. Baptism for the dead is an ordinance performed in the temple. Normal baptisms are done in a local ward font or even in rivers, if no font is available.

At a baptism, there is also a program performed for the benefit of the newly baptised member. There is no program performed for baptisms for the dead. After all, the ordinance isn't fully complete until the person on the other side accepts it, which they may not. It's a proxy ordinance and the dead are free to accept or reject it.

If they want a program put on for them, then they're free to take it up with their church leaders on the other side.

I hope that helps clear up some of your confusion.

edited for grammatical errors (though they still abound, I'm sure)

also edited because I was too slow in posting and some of this has already been covered.

yes i know this...im speaking just about baptism for the dead...i was asking if it is like the baptism of the living....well yes there is a difference of the baptism itself that is not what im asking...

to be more direct...is there any prayers said what so ever anytime during the baptism for the dead (Im not speaking about the baptism itself...im talking about the ceremony)...