First Things

[LDSMusic483]

If you wish to go on, I would only ask that you give me a reference of the living praying for the dead.

The only one of your cites that even purports to do this is 2 Timothy 1:16-18, where you say Paul prays for his dead friend, Onesiphorus, but when I look at the passage, there is nothing in it to indicate that Onesiphorus is dead.

So it looks like the tally is still one for baptism for the dead, and zero for praying for the dead.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I guess even mediocre minds think alike!

Just adding off of Consig's reply, since he quoted the scripture for 2 Tim. One of the biggest things that points to Onesiphorus being alive is that Paul is saying he hopes the Onesiphorus receives mercy "in that day." It sounds like a future event, lending credence to the idea that he is still alive.

[consiglieri]

I don't know. Maybe there actually are some scriptures in the Bible that support praying for the dead.

I will wait and see.

My guess is that this is as good as it gets without a detour to Maccabees.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] that the Father was Lord, and Jesus was just simply his Son (a god yes but not THE Lord as the Father) and the Holy Spirit yet another being...[...]

LDS believe that Jesus is their Lord, and G-d is their Father (I know many believe LDS have a penchant for ignoring scripture, but this is one aspect of holy writ thatâ??s pretty unavoidable).

ok let me get this straight...it has been a long time since I was a mormon...

you guys believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is God?

Yes.

or do you believe that the Father is a [G-d], Jesus is a [God] and the Holy Spirit is a [God]

And yes again.

or do you believe that the Father is God and Jesus is just a man,

No.

and the holy spirit is just a spirit?

And no again.

[LDSMusic483]

I don't know. Maybe there actually are some scriptures in the Bible that support praying for the dead.

I will wait and see.

My guess is that this is as good as it gets without a detour to Maccabees.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In all actuality, I don't know that there's a huge problem with praying for the dead. For example, we pray for individuals to accept the gospel here, why not pray for someone who died without accepting the gospel to accept it there? Though I don't think it's a common practice in the church, I don't know that there is anything inherantly wrong with it. The issue is when prayers are offered TO the dead. Regardless, I don't believe that either practice is biblical.

[Servant]

If you wish to go on, I would only ask that you give me a reference of the living praying for the dead.The only one of your cites that even purports to do this is 2 Timothy 1:16-18, where you say Paul prays for his dead friend, Onesiphorus, but when I look at the passage, there is nothing in it to indicate that Onesiphorus is dead.So it looks like the tally is still one for baptism for the dead, and zero for praying for the dead.All the Best!--ConsiglieriI guess even mediocre minds think alike!

do you not understand the word "was"?

2 Tim 1:16-18 - Where do you get that Onesihporus was dead? It never says that? In fact later in 2 Tim, Paul "salutes" his household. Lk 16: 19-30 - I think a better summary is departed rich man tries and fails to intercede for his brothers. Plus, do Catholics subscribe to praying to the wicked for help?1 Tim 2:1-7 - That scripture doesn't argue your point very well because it makes no allusion to the dead. All men can be read as for all of those who are living, as it goes on to subscribe to those who can "come unto a knowledge of the truth." Do Catholics believe that one can receive the truth after this life as do the Mormons?Rom 8: 35-39 - Okay...this scripture has absolutely ZERO to do with praying. It's talking about if anything will cause Christs love to not be extended to us. Basically, come what may...Christ will still love you. Once again, not a scripture that supports/condones praying for the dead. 1 Pet 3:18-20, 4:6 Yes, Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, but you once again failed to show that this means we should pray to or for the dead. Also, as it were, the original question was not only scriptures that support this practice (which you have clearly not shown) but also "supply the scriptures that condone their method, which is praying for the dead through intermediaries other than Christ."This nowhere shows that the method of praying through intermediaries other than Christ. I'm not sure if this was ever your intention, but you didn't address it either.edited for clarity

read it...it is past tense...."was" is the key...was...show me where he wasnt praying for his dead friend...can you do that?

[Servant]

LDS believe that Jesus is their Lord, and G-d is their Father (I know many believe LDS have a penchant for ignoring scripture, but this is one aspect of holy writ thatâ??s pretty unavoidable).

Yes.

And yes again.

No.

And no again.

you said yes to both questions...

which are two different things...

let me make it clear...

do you believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God (one God the same God)

or do you believe that the Father is a god...Jesus is a god and the holy spirit is a god...

[Doctor Steuss]

you said yes to both questions...

which are two different things...

To some, perhaps.

let me make it clear...

do you believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God (one God the same God)

Yes.

or do you believe that the Father is a [G-d]...Jesus is a [God] and the [H]oly pirit is a [God]...

Yes.

[maklelan]

ok no problem...

2 Tim 1;16-18 Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus

And you're just going to assert that Onesiphorus is dead because Paul refers to those events in the past tense? You don't think that's a little silly?

Lk 16;19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers

1) That was an allegory, not an actual narrative. There's no reason to take it literally at all.

2) No one prayed to him.

3) His request was very clearly rejected. No ability to intercede for others is at all indicated.

1 Tim 2;1-7 offer prayers, petitions for all men

So when someone refers to "all men" it includes dead men, and it includes petitions for others via deceased intermediaries? That's pretty literal. What about women? Does it include children?

This is the most ludicrous of literalist interpretations I think I've ever seen.

rom. 8;35-39 death cannot separate us from Christ.

True, but that doesn't endorse (1) praying to the deceased that they (2) make intercession for someone, especially when the Bible very clearly states the only way to God is through Christ himself.

1 Pet 3;18-20, 4;6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

But no one prays to them, and they don't intercede on behalf of anyone else. That has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my statement.

I can go on if you wish me to?

You've yet to give me one valid example. Go on if you think you can.

[LDSMusic483]

do you not understand the word "was"?read it...it is past tense...."was" is the key...was...show me where he wasnt praying for his dead friend...can you do that?

So apparently now past tense always indicates death? It also said he WAS in Rome. That doesn't mean that he stayed there! That is easily read as when I was preaching where Onesiphorous lived he refreshed me and wasn't ashamed of me.

[consiglieri]

do you not understand the word "was"?read it...it is past tense...."was" is the key...was...show me where he wasnt praying for his dead friend...can you do that?

I am having trouble understanding why you have so much difficulty with the LDS understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:29 while at the same time you have no trouble with the logical leaps you must make to have 2 Timothy refer to prayer for the dead.

I mean, at least 1 Corinthians 15:29 actually says "baptism for the dead."

Keep on swimming!

--Consiglieri

So apparently now past tense always indicates death? It also said he WAS in Rome. That doesn't mean that he stayed there! That is easily read as when I was preaching where Onesiphorous lived he refreshed me and wasn't ashamed of me.

You misunderstand.

Everybody who has ever been to Rome is now dead.

No, wait a second . . .

[Servant]

If you wish to go on, I would only ask that you give me a reference of the living praying for the dead.The only one of your cites that even purports to do this is 2 Timothy 1:16-18, where you say Paul prays for his dead friend, Onesiphorus, but when I look at the passage, there is nothing in it to indicate that Onesiphorus is dead.So it looks like the tally is still one for baptism for the dead, and zero for praying for the dead.All the Best!--ConsiglieriI guess even mediocre minds think alike!

it also states this "we will always pray for you" in the bible...you say that you cant find anything what I cited that is for praying for the dead? you got to be kidding me..well whatever...but yet you cant tell me otherwise...prove to me that it doesnt...or prove to me that the Early church never did this...you wont because it is clearly that the early church did teach this...1. all christians are members of Christ's body and one another (Rom 12;5 and many more)2. Jesus has only one body (Eph. 4;4, Col 3;15)3 Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8;35-39)4. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom. 12;10, 1 Thess 5;11, Gal 6;2)We are members of Christ's ONE body...he is the vine and we are his branches (although some broke off from the vine)...we are united in His divine life even beyond the grave...and concerned with eachother's salvation....this shouldnt be taken as the same as with saints....we pray FOR the dead...is different from we pray to the saints asking them to pray for us...two different things...just want that to be clear...lets look at what 2 Tim 1;16-18 says for a moment "May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains...may the lord grant him find mercy from the lord on that day"...St. Paul prays for his departed friend Onesiphorus, which makes sense only if he can be helped by prayer...and I find it very commical to think that you believe that he isnt dead.. then explain the passage then...it wouldnt make any sense at all if he was still alive especially when the verbs are past tense...1 Cor 15; 29-30 it says "otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? if the dead are not raised at all then why are they having themselves baptized for them?" in his argument for the resurrection of the body, St. Paul mentions (without condemning or approving) the practice of people having themselves baptized for the benefit of the dead, who cannot be helped if there is no intermediate state of purification....in short, if the jews, St. Paul, and the early christians prayed for the dead, we should have no fear of praying for them as well. praying for the dead presumes an intermediate state of purification, whatever you may call it. Catholics call it Purgatory...

[LDSMusic483]

I am having trouble understanding why you have so much difficulty with the LDS understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:29 while at the same time you have no trouble with the logical leaps you must make to have 2 Timothy refer to prayer for the dead.

I mean, at least 1 Corinthians 15:29 actually says "baptism for the dead."

Keep on swimming!

--Consiglieri

You misunderstand.

Everybody who has ever been to Rome is now dead.

No, wait a second . . .

Well...there goes my plans of taking a trip for the Rome Italy Temples dedication. Definitely don't want to come back dead!

[Servant]

I am having trouble understanding why you have so much difficulty with the LDS understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:29 while at the same time you have no trouble with the logical leaps you must make to have 2 Timothy refer to prayer for the dead.

I mean, at least 1 Corinthians 15:29 actually says "baptism for the dead."

I touch on that in my next post....read on...

and another thing...since when did you as a momon become "bible alone"??? seriously...

[LDSMusic483]

it also states this "we will always pray for you" in the bible...you say that you cant find anything what I cited that is for praying for the dead? you got to be kidding me..well whatever...but yet you cant tell me otherwise...prove to me that it doesnt...or prove to me that the Early church never did this...you wont because it is clearly that the early church did teach this...1. all christians are members of Christ's body and one another (Rom 12;5 and many more)2. Jesus has only one body (Eph. 4;4, Col 3;15)3 Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8;35-39)4. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom. 12;10, 1 Thess 5;11, Gal 6;2)We are members of Christ's ONE body...he is the vine and we are his branches (although some broke off from the vine)...we are united in His divine life even beyond the grave...and concerned with eachother's salvation....this shouldnt be taken as the same as with saints....we pray FOR the dead...is different from we pray to the saints asking them to pray for us...two different things...just want that to be clear...lets look at what 2 Tim 1;16-18 says for a moment "May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains...may the lord grant him find mercy from the lord on that day"...St. Paul prays for his departed friend Onesiphorus, which makes sense only if he can be helped by prayer...and I find it very commical to think that you believe that he isnt dead.. then explain the passage then...it wouldnt make any sense at all if he was still alive especially when the verbs are past tense...1 Cor 15; 29-30 it says "otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? if the dead are not raised at all then why are they having themselves baptized for them?" in his argument for the resurrection of the body, St. Paul mentions (without condemning or approving) the practice of people having themselves baptized for the benefit of the dead, who cannot be helped if there is no intermediate state of purification....in short, if the jews, St. Paul, and the early christians prayed for the dead, we should have no fear of praying for them as well. praying for the dead presumes an intermediate state of purification, whatever you may call it. Catholics call it Purgatory...

We've already addressed you weak argument about Onesiphorus. Nowhere does it say he's dead, and Paul is compeletely in his right to use past tense for a living person. We can also answer to your claim that early christians (obviously post-apostle) prayed to the dead because "grievous wolves entered the flocks and did not spare them."

[Daniel Peterson]

I am a Catholic Christian, my thoughts might be interesting to you. I do not believe the lds are Christian for the simple fact that the Christian theology is so, so different. Black and white in my view.

With all due respect, it seems that you're engaging in circular reasoning, or begging the question.

http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-pbc-circular.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

In your argument, Christian theology implicitly excludes Mormonism, which demonstrates that Christian theology excludes Mormonism because Christian theology, which does not include Mormonism, is very different from Mormon theology, which is not included within Christian theology.

Especially the Theology of who God is, Mercy and Grace, and the account of the Fall in the Garden. I would be open to talking about this, but I would only answer

In other words, we can talk all we want and you'll never be convinced?

Sounds promising!

If you owned a 65 Mustang and in two thousand and eight someone showed you a picture of a van and told you this is a 65 Mustang you would know that it was not.

That's the wrong analogy.

Suppose you owned a 65 Mustang that you dearly loved, and, in 2008, somebody showed you a picture of a van and told you that it represented another kind of vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine -- another kind of automobile, in other words (in the broad sense). If you responded that, no, it could not be an automobile, a vehicle self-powered by an internal combustion engine, because it's so very different from your 65 Mustang, you would be seriously off base.

Latter-day Saints have never claimed that their version of Christianity was exactly like those already on offer. That's rather the point of the Restoration.

[Servant]

We've already addressed you weak argument about Onesiphorus. Nowhere does it say he's dead, and Paul is compeletely in his right to use past tense for a living person. We can also answer to your claim that early christians (obviously post-apostle) prayed to the dead because "grievous wolves entered the flocks and did not spare them."

oh you want early Church fathers? well why dont you prove that he is alive????? that verse doesnt make any sense at all if he was alive...and you call my argument weak...ha ha you are funny...sometimes...but yet you think past tense and then praying that God has mercy of a good friend of the apostle and him being alive saying that?

this may be helpful...you can also search there for the ECF is you wish...there is plenty to show you that it was taught in the early church...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

[maklelan]

oh you want early Church fathers? well why dont you prove that he is alive????? that verse doesnt make any sense at all if he was alive...and you call my argument weak...ha ha you are funny...sometimes...but yet you think past tense and then praying that God has mercy of a good friend of the apostle and him being alive saying that?

this may be helpful...you can also search there for the ECF is you wish...there is plenty to show you that it was taught in the early church...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

The Early Church Fathers also taught that the phoenix was a bird that burst into flames when it died and gave birth to a new phoenix from the ashes. The Early Church Fathers don't have any better a perspective on this than we do. The use of the past tense in 2 Timothy 1:16â??18 refers absolutely and exclusively to events in the past, which in no way precludes or even casts doubt on a living Onesiphorus. He referred to Onesiphorus' stay in Rome and to his activities there, but since Onesiphorus' departure from Rome could just as easily explain the past tense, there's no way to aver his death. This Bible commentary makes a good final point:

Though Onesiphorus had come to Rome, his household had remained in Ephesus; and a last salutation is sent to them by Paul. He could not write again, as he was now ready to be offered, and his execution could not long be delayed. But as he writes, he entertains the kindest feelings toward Onesiphorus and his household, and he prays that the Lord will give mercy to the household of Onesiphorus.

He also uses these words in regard to Onesiphorus himself:

"The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day." It is not clear whether Onesiphorus was living, or whether he had died, before Paul wrote this epistle. Different opinions have been held on the subject.

The way in which Paul refers twice to "the household (the Revised Version (British and American) "house") of Onesiphorus," makes it possible that Onesiphorus himself had died. If this is so--but certainty is impossible--the apostle's words in regard to him would be a pious wish, which has nothing in common with the abuses which have gathered round the subject of prayers for the dead, a practice which has no foundation in Scripture.

[consiglieri]

it also states this "we will always pray for you" in the bible...you say that you cant find anything what I cited that is for praying for the dead? you got to be kidding me..well whatever...but yet you cant tell me otherwise...prove to me that it doesnt...or prove to me that the Early church never did this...you wont because it is clearly that the early church did teach this...

St. Paul prays for his departed friend Onesiphorus, which makes sense only if he can be helped by prayer...and I find it very commical to think that you believe that he isnt dead.. then explain the passage then...it wouldnt make any sense at all if he was still alive especially when the verbs are past tense...

Dear Servant,

You are doubtless a nice person, but I think it best to discontinue this particular discussion inasmuch as we evidently have different definitions of logic and reasoning.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDSMusic483]

oh you want early Church fathers? well why dont you prove that he is alive????? that verse doesnt make any sense at all if he was alive...and you call my argument weak...ha ha you are funny...sometimes...but yet you think past tense and then praying that God has mercy of a good friend of the apostle and him being alive saying that?

this may be helpful...you can also search there for the ECF is you wish...there is plenty to show you that it was taught in the early church...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

I'll even give you another rendering or possible understanding. It could also be saying that Onesipherus apostatized, and Paul was praying for mercy on him and before he wasn't offended by his chains and refreshed him, but he no longer did those things. You introduced the argument, so it's your job to prove he was dead, and simply pointing to a past tense verb is not sufficient evidence. So unless you can come up with better proof for you claim, you would be better off stating, you think that Onesipherus is dead, but you aren't sure because nowhere does it say so.

edited because I can't spell

[johnny]

Daniel Peterson

With all due respect, it seems that you're engaging in circular reasoning, or begging the question.

It is not circular logic to say that Mormons are not Christians. Scripture reveals a Christian is a disciple and a disciple of Christ continues in his words. Mormonâ??s do not continue in the words of Christ.

Latter-day Saints have never claimed that their version of Christianity was exactly like those already on offer. That's rather the point of the Restoration.

The Mormonâ??s version of Christianity is very different than what the apostles of the bible believed and what the early Christians believed.

[T-Shirt]

I would not consider Mormons Christians as defined by the Bible.

Johnny,

Where does the Bible define, "Christian"?

T-Shirt

[LDSMusic483]

Daniel Peterson

It is not circular logic to say that Mormons are not Christians. Scripture reveals a Christian is a disciple and a disciple of Christ continues in his words. Mormonâ??s do not continue in the words of Christ.

The Mormonâ??s version of Christianity is very different than what the apostles of the bible believed and what the early Christians believed.

Johnny, we can use the same argument, and we've been over this who knows how many times with you. According to your interpretation of what the bible says, and those of your faith, we aren't Christian. Fine...congratulations. According to our interpretation of the bible we ARE christians. You're just going to have to wait until the end of the world or your death to find out, because God seems to be the only one who can say yay or nay on the matter. You can call to the bible all you want, but no one listens to your interpretation but those of your faith. We believe Christ to be separate from God. You don't. We can both prove our points by the bible. It is a fruitless discussion with you because of the different perspectives.

[Daniel Peterson]

It is not circular logic to say that Mormons are not Christians.

And, of course, I didn't say that it is.

A flat assertion isn't an argument at all, so it can't be a circular argument.

I was responding to Richard's argument.

If you have anything to say about the subject, I'll read it.

Scripture reveals a Christian is a disciple and a disciple of Christ continues in his words. Mormonâ??s do not continue in the words of Christ.

Flat assertion.

We disagree.

Stalemate. Standoff.

The Mormonâ??s version of Christianity is very different than what the apostles of the bible believed and what the early Christians believed.

Flat assertion.

We disagree.

Stalemate. Standoff.

[johnny]

T-Shirt

Where does the Bible define, "Christian"?

Acts 11:26 says â??the disciples were called Christians first in Antiochâ? â?¦ Christians are disciples.

[LDSMusic483]

T-Shirt

Acts 11:26 says â??the disciples were called Christians first in Antiochâ? â?¦ Christians are disciples.

okay...let's play this out...where does the bible define what a disciple is?