bethabara Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Understanding that there is no way to bring common understanding to someone who wishes for there to be a division, regardless of the information presented.So, let me offer an interesting historical episode. At Harry Truman's funeral, broadcast simultaneously on all three channels, following Christmas, 1972, the good Southern Baptist preacher officiating quoted at length from the scriptures.I recognized the text immediately, 1 Cor. 15. I pulled my scriptures and opened so that I could follow along. The good preacher continued to read the entire chapter, verse by verse, all the way to the end, SKIPPING only v. 29. I guess the good folks that believe all that is written in the Bible (neither add to nor take away), and that it is completely plain to the gifted reader, wouldn't understand this convoluted verse. Better just to leave it out. I fear we are missing a whole bunch that some good folks 1700 years ago thought to be confusing.But, servant, you do have nearly 1700 years of Christian revisionism on youor side. For me, give me that old time religion, but really old, like as it came out originally from the Savior and His apostles.
LDSMusic483 Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 yes i know this...im speaking just about baptism for the dead...i was asking if it is like the baptism of the living....well yes there is a difference of the baptism itself that is not what im asking...to be more direct...is there any prayers said what so ever anytime during the baptism for the dead (Im not speaking about the baptism itself...im talking about the ceremony)...Aside from the ordinance itself, no, there is no program, no opening or closing prayer, no talks, nothing like that. It is just the ordinance, they do them fairly rapidly as there are many who are dead who have not received this blessing in their lives. Just the ordinance of baptism. It's similar when they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Normally (meaning for the living) there is the ordinance part of receiving the Holy Ghost, followed by a blessing for the individual dictated by the spirit. When doing by proxy, it is only the ordinance with no subsequent blessing.
tomfoolery Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 yes i know this...im speaking just about baptism for the dead...i was asking if it is like the baptism of the living....well yes there is a difference of the baptism itself that is not what im asking...to be more direct...is there any prayers said what so ever anytime during the baptism for the dead (Im not speaking about the baptism itself...im talking about the ceremony)...Sorry. I thought I answered you well enough, but I guess I didn't make it clear enough. (I do that quite a bit.)The baptism for the dead goes like this: There is a person being baptized for the dead, and there is a person baptizing that person for the dead. The person being baptized is worthy to be baptized for someone and the person baptizing is a worthy holder of the priesthood. It goes something like this: "(name) I baptize you for and in behalf of (dead person) In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen." Then they are immersed and the ordinance is complete.That's it. That's all there is to it. There's no prayer for the dead person. There's no pleading for their soul and salvation or anything like that. It's just an ordinance performed that the dead person can accept should they choose to. That's it.*Dang it! Too slow again!
LDSMusic483 Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Sorry. I thought I answered you well enough, but I guess I didn't make it clear enough. (I do that quite a bit.)The baptism for the dead goes like this: There is a person being baptized for the dead, and there is a person baptizing that person for the dead. The person being baptized is worthy to be baptized for someone and the person baptizing is a worthy holder of the priesthood. It goes something like this: "(name) I baptize you for and in behalf of (name) who is dead. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." Then they are immersed and the ordinance is complete.That's it. That's all there is to it. There's no prayer for the dead person. There's no pleading for their soul and salvation or anything like that. It's just an ordinance performed that the dead person can accept should they choose to. That's it.*Dang it! Too slow again! Hey Tom...you forgot two other individuals in the ending to the baptismal ordinance!
tomfoolery Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Hey Tom...you forgot two other individuals in the ending to the baptismal ordinance! Hey! There's no blushing smiley! er... I edited it. thanks for the quick alert. I almost didn't catch your meaning because of the "Tom" part. It might still be slightly inacurate as I havn't done any BftD in quite a while. But the general gist of it is there.
Calm Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Just in case it isn't clear--when Bluebell says "program" she means what is going on during the meeting (for a living baptism), not any sort of required ritual or ordinance, like a primary program during Sacrament Meeting--the children's group presents the music and talks and teachings that occur during that meeting, it however is not part of the Sacrament ordinance, neither is the rest of the meeting that is normally scheduled. The Sacrament can stand independently, just as the Baptism can. There are policies that have general guidelines about what the programs should include, but each leader and speaker puts their own unique stamp on what goes on.The first prayer is an invocation---opening the meeting, inviting the Spirit, etc., later on will be the prayer given for the baptism, which is better called a blessing or ordinance, then will be the benediction, the prayer that closes the meeting.Of the three, only the baptismal blessing is part of the ordinance and is the only one performed as well during the baptism of the dead, though it may be that an invocation and benediction is performed by those involved in the baptisms for the dead to invite the Spirit--still it has nothing to do with the baptismal ordinance itself.Besides baptism, other ordinances are performed for the dead by the living acting their part but the additional, nonessential parts that are not part of the actual ritual are removed (such as the sermon/talk prior to a sealing/marriage given by the temple sealer for living marriages/sealings but not for dead ones).At funerals, prayers offered are again the invocation, the benediction and the dedication of the grave. The only thing I remember being uttered in a prayer at a funeral was the hope that the family would recognize the presence of love of the dead one and the reverse, but this nothing more than an expression of the eternal connection of families. It is nothing like I've been told about catholic prayers for the dead or the appeals to the dead.There are likely some who pray for the Lord to soften the heart of a loved one and this may happen when they're dead or alive, but there is no formalized teaching or ritual about doing this, just that we should pray for all things we righteously desire.
busybee Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 no the prayer is not the actual baptism that is not what i was getting at...but you answered it...so there is prayers during the service (this has nothing to do with the baptism itself)...but the prayers during the "program", correct?prayer, name, baptism, prayer...ect ect...whatever, correct? i want to be sure im getting this...The only prayers said when baptisms for the dead are done would be before the actual baptisms are performed and would be for the purpose of inviting the Spirit of the Lord to be present and for the benefit of those ( generally youth ) who would be participating in the baptism. No praying for or to the ones for whom the baptisms are being performed. I guess that was what your argument was going to be. That's really reaching!!!
johnny Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Daniel PetersonNot meaning to be offensive, I simply have no interest in conversation with you.I was hoping to continue the conversation with you. To me Mr. Porterâ??s is deceiving because he omits many Mormon teachings that reveal why Mormons are not Christians. He omitted to say that Mormons teach a different Jesus than what the Bible reveals. Mormons teach that Jesus is one of three Gods, he was born of heavenly mother and that his literal brother is Satan. He omitted to say Mormons believe in a different gospel than what the Bible reveals. The Mormon gospel comes from the Book of Mormon which says "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". The gospel in the Bible is "by grace are ye saved through faith". Mormon believe the Book of Mormon and Chrisitians believe the Bible.The Catholic Church consider the Jesus taught by Mormonism so different than the Catholic Church does not consider their baptism valid. The Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said, "The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix." (see link below):http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/MORMBAP1.HTMThe Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith "according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. ... ... God the Father is an exalted man, native of another planet, who has acquired his divine status through a death similar to that of human beings, the necessary way to divinization (cf. TPJS, pp. 345-346). God the Father has relatives and this is explained by the doctrine of infinite regression of the gods who initially were mortal (cf. TPJS, p. 373). God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. ... The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. ... Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism"The following link says although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically.http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=ETWN (The Catholic Eternal Word Television Network) "Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either." 08-21-2006According to the Bible a Christian is a disciple (Acts 11:26). A disciple or Christian continues in the words of Christ (John 8:31). A disciple of Christ believes in one God (Mark 12:32). A follower of Joseph Smith believes in "three Gods", see link below:http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1Joseph Smith Teachings â??I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Godsâ? Ensign, Mar 2008
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 The only prayers said when baptisms for the dead are done would be before the actual baptisms are performed and would be for the purpose of inviting the Spirit of the Lord to be present and for the benefit of those ( generally youth ) who would be participating in the baptism. No praying for or to the ones for whom the baptisms are being performed. I guess that was what your argument was going to be. That's really reaching!!!im wasnt talking about the actual baptism itself...and you know people are saying there is NO prayer what so ever before or after when it is baptism for the dead.....but you are saying there is...which is it...do you or the others actually know?I want to know who KNOWS....thank you and all but now I am back to where I was...confused...which is it....prayers or no prayers during the baptism for the dead (not the baptism itself)
Mellybug Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Servant, let me give you a normal progression of events for baptisms for the dead.The youth of ward are going to go to baptisms for the dead. Generally everyone will gather at the church beforehand, or meet outside the Temple before going in. At that point in time, a leader may (or may choose not to as well, it isn't a requirement) gather everyone and lead them in a group prayer. This prayer is a prayer that the the youth will remember the significance of what they are doing and act in an appropriately reverent manner, that they may feel the spirit and so on. This prayer is done for the benefit of those who are living and about to be going in and doing the Lord's work. The group will go inside and get changed into their baptismal clothes (same as those for any other baptism). Each person waits their turn. When it is their turn they will go into the font and be baptized as described by previous posters. No prayer. No song. Nothing except for going into the water and being baptized on behalf of and for 'x' individual who is already dead. If the person is getting baptized for more than one person who is already dead, the ordinance of baptism is performed back to back with only enough time for the words of the ordinance to be read in between each time the proxy is immersed in the water. Nothing is said in between the baptisms. When the youth or individual in question is done being baptized for the dead, they exit the waters and go to get dried off and change.The individual may or may not then go in and perform the confirmations for the individuals they were baptized for, though from my experience I have always chosen to do so. There are no prayers said before during or after the confirmations either--just the actual confirmations.When this is done, they gather their belongings, wait for the others in the group if it is a youth activity, and then leave the Temple. At this point in time, the youth leaders may again choose to offer a closing prayer. This prayer is generally one of thanks. Thanks that the youth were able, worthy, and willing to give up their time to come and serve others (the dead in this case). Thanks for feeling the spirit and for being able to have the priesthood and be able to perform these ordinances for others. Thanks for the Atonement of Christ, etc. The prayers have nothing to do with the ordinance of baptism for the dead itself. There are NO prayers performed at any time during the ceremony/ordinance of baptizing for the dead. As has been described several times now, it is all very business like. Person enters water, is baptized, leaves water. Nothing more.Hope this helps to clear up your confusion.eta--yes, I am sure that the people who have already described this to you KNOW, though as I have not personally witnessed them participating in the ordinance I can't sign off on it being 'definite' that they 'know'. I can say that I KNOW that this is how things are done from personal experience.--Mel
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 thank you melly, i really dont know what to believe...one person said there is prayers before and afterthe other person said it was optional like what you just said...then the person who answered one of the above says there is NO prayer what so ever used before or after or anything of the baptism for the dead....with so many different answers.....but I will take your word for it.....so there is prayers before and after (if chosen)...thank you
busybee Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 thank you melly, i really dont know what to believe...one person said there is prayers before and afterthe other person said it was optional like what you just said...then the person who answered one of the above says there is NO prayer what so ever used before or after or anything of the baptism for the dead....with so many different answers.....but I will take your word for it.....so there is prayers before and after (if chosen)...thank youActually, does it really matter how many prayers are said or not said, seeing that none of the prayers that may be said would not be said to or for the dead?? ( wow, now i'm confused!!) That is after all what is being discussed here.It is not common practice for lds to pray to or for their dead. We may perform ordinances on their behalf, which they may or may not accept, the choice remains theirs, but these ordinances do not equate praying to, through or for those who have died.You haven't recieved that many different answers. All the same answer, just worded differently. You choose to misunderstand because it suits your purpose.
Mellybug Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Yes, if we choose to pray. However, please understand--and this is the point that everyone has been consistent on--that any such prayers are NOT part of the ordinance, and don't occur in the temple. They are not said to or on the behalf of the dead. Trying to construe the prayers that have been mentioned (not saying that you are trying to do this) as being part of the ordinance of baptism for the dead as performed by the LDS church would be like saying that your, Servant's, personal morning and evening prayers to the Lord are part of your communion/sacrament when you go to church. They are not a part of the church service at all, but something that you choose to do for your own edification when you wake in the morning and before you go to sleep at night. Same thing here, only difference is in the amount of time elapsed between prayers and ordinance; the relation of prayer to ordinance is the same though--namely, they are not connected in any way.
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Actually, does it really matter how many prayers are said or not said, seeing that none of the prayers that may be said would not be said to or for the dead?? ( wow, now i'm confused!!) That is after all what is being discussed here.It is not common practice for lds to pray to or for their dead. We may perform ordinances on their behalf, which they may or may not accept, the choice remains theirs, but these ordinances do not equate praying to, through or for those who have died.You haven't recieved that many different answers. All the same answer, just worded differently. You choose to misunderstand because it suits your purpose.did I say anywhere of "how many"? no...no I recieved different answers....go read....i asked is there any prayers what so ever before after or anywhere of the baptism for the dead...I did get different answers...one said yesone said no none what so everone said yes but optionaltell me how is yes and no the same???
busybee Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 did I say anywhere of "how many"? no...no I recieved different answers....go read....i asked is there any prayers what so ever before after or anywhere of the baptism for the dead...I did get different answers...one said yesone said no none what so everone said yes but optionaltell me how is yes and no the same???All said that the prayers that may be said were in no way part of the ordinance of baptism for the dead.
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 All said that the prayers that may be said were in no way part of the ordinance of baptism for the dead.that wasnt what I was talking about in different answers...i thought it was obvious what I was talking about...I was talking about prayers i was getting different answers...not once was the subject about the baptism itself...I made it clear that I was seeking if there was prayers done what so ever....i was getting different answers about if there is prayers or not....
LDSMusic483 Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 that wasnt what I was talking about in different answers...i thought it was obvious what I was talking about...I was talking about prayers i was getting different answers...not once was the subject about the baptism itself...I made it clear that I was seeking if there was prayers done what so ever....i was getting different answers about if there is prayers or not....People answered according to what they thought you were "fishing" for to prove your point. As it comes to the dead, there is no prayer offered for them in relation to any of the temple ordinances. Period. An opening or closing prayer "may" be offered if so desired, but it is for the benefit of the living who are giving of their time to do this service. I think you got so many answers because some were answering about whether there were any prayers on behalf of the dead (no's) and some were answering on if there were ever any other prayers offered at all (yes's and maybe's). Simple enough? But in relation to your question/argument regarding prayers for (on behalf) of the dead, there are none.
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 People answered according to what they thought you were "fishing" for to prove your point. As it comes to the dead, there is no prayer offered for them in relation to any of the temple ordinances. Period. An opening or closing prayer "may" be offered if so desired, but it is for the benefit of the living who are giving of their time to do this service. I think you got so many answers because some were answering about whether there were any prayers on behalf of the dead (no's) and some were answering on if there were ever any other prayers offered at all (yes's and maybe's). Simple enough? But in relation to your question/argument regarding prayers for (on behalf) of the dead, there are none.it seems that a couple did get what I was saying but you are making it like it is some big mystery...how can i be "fishing"...when flat out say anywhere what so ever is there any prayers before or during or after?dont make it out to be something that it is not....
Mellybug Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Servant,To be fair, since the overall subject of discussion (with you as opposed to the op's topic) has been that of baptism for the dead and/vs praying for the dead, I would say the LDSMusic was spot on when stating that people answered according to what they thought you were 'fishing' for. I wouldn't have called it fishing for anything but it did seem as if that was the point you were trying to get at or clarify. Specifically, that of 'Do the LDS also pray for the dead in the course of their ordinance of baptizing for the dead?'. It seems apparent that others thought you were trying to determine the answer to the same question which is why multiple posters, even though giving you slightly different answers as to whether prayer occurs at all, have all given the same answer in regards to the ordinance. This is also why several of us have stated that everyone gave you the same answer in spite of minor differences in description. Did I misunderstand why you were asking? I fully admit that I may have. I attempted to give you a full answer to both the question you actually asked as well as to the point of what you seemed to be trying to determine (that of differences and similarity between bftd and pftd and whether we too actually pftd within the baptism ordinance). If you were in fact not trying to establish whether we prayed in the baptism ordinance itself and therefore effectively prayed for the dead even if not specifically doing so, then may I ask what you were trying to get at? What is it that you are trying to discover or determine? If you clarify that, then the answers people give you may have more meaning to you and get closer to the heart of whatever it is you are trying to understand.btw, I like your giraffe.
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Servant,To be fair, since the overall subject of discussion (with you as opposed to the op's topic) has been that of baptism for the dead and/vs praying for the dead, I would say the LDSMusic was spot on when stating that people answered according to what they thought you were 'fishing' for. I wouldn't have called it fishing for anything but it did seem as if that was the point you were trying to get at or clarify. Specifically, that of 'Do the LDS also pray for the dead in the course of their ordinance of baptizing for the dead?'. It seems apparent that others thought you were trying to determine the answer to the same question which is why multiple posters, even though giving you slightly different answers as to whether prayer occurs at all, have all given the same answer in regards to the ordinance. This is also why several of us have stated that everyone gave you the same answer in spite of minor differences in description. Did I misunderstand why you were asking? I fully admit that I may have. I attempted to give you a full answer to both the question you actually asked as well as to the point of what you seemed to be trying to determine (that of differences and similarity between bftd and pftd and whether we too actually pftd within the baptism ordinance). If you were in fact not trying to establish whether we prayed in the baptism ordinance itself and therefore effectively prayed for the dead even if not specifically doing so, then may I ask what you were trying to get at? What is it that you are trying to discover or determine? If you clarify that, then the answers people give you may have more meaning to you and get closer to the heart of whatever it is you are trying to understand.btw, I like your giraffe. my question has been answered...why does one want to assume what I was meaning or doing? is it because im not mormon and i must be speaking of a secret code or something? no...she was not dead on....because there was a couple who did follow what i was asking and they did the best they could to answer...despite that I got a few different answers in regards to prayer (not baptism)....that is allbut it does go back to my very first post....where I stated that I agreed that there is alot of similarities between baptism for the dead and praying for the dead...
LDSMusic483 Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 my question has been answered...why does one want to assume what I was meaning or doing? is it because im not mormon and i must be speaking of a secret code or something? no...she was not dead on....because there was a couple who did follow what i was asking and they did the best they could to answer...despite that I got a few different answers in regards to prayer (not baptism)....that is allbut it does go back to my very first post....where I stated that I agreed that there is alot of similarities between baptism for the dead and praying for the dead...So you believe that an individual has the ability to accept the gospel after this life? Otherwise, for what purpose would there be a prayer? And if so...what if that individual has not been baptized? Christ set it forth as a most definite necessity.
tomfoolery Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 my question has been answered...why does one want to assume what I was meaning or doing? is it because im not mormon and i must be speaking of a secret code or something? no...she was not dead on....because there was a couple who did follow what i was asking and they did the best they could to answer...despite that I got a few different answers in regards to prayer (not baptism)....that is allbut it does go back to my very first post....where I stated that I agreed that there is alot of similarities between baptism for the dead and praying for the dead...I don't see any similarities except that they're both for the dead.
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 I don't see any similarities except that they're both for the dead.well...it seems that there is a different opinion:QUOTE(consiglieri @ Oct 22 2008, 07:01 AM) *(19:20) The host seems gracious in discussing baptism for the dead, and mentioning that it is brought up in the Bible but scholars today don't know what it means; and also says that no trace of the practice survived in traditional Christianity.At that point, I thought it could have been mentioned that the prayers for the dead may be a survival of the concept if not the exact practice.I think Catholics might "get" that, too.Boy, it sure is easy doing these interviews with no pressure!All the Best!--Consiglieri
Servant Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 So you believe that an individual has the ability to accept the gospel after this life? Otherwise, for what purpose would there be a prayer? And if so...what if that individual has not been baptized? Christ set it forth as a most definite necessity.im not talking about accepting the gospel in the after life...we dont believe in the spirit world/prison or whatever...where half of it is for the unlearn to be taught the gospel and the other half in waiting...we do believe though purgatory for purification because nothing that enters Heaven is defiled nothing....if one dies who is not in the state of grace would need to be cleansed and purified before entering heaven...this has nothing to do with what im talking about...so lets not go into a different conversation...
skenderbeg Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 The Mormonâ??s version of Christianity is very different than what the apostles of the bible believed and what the early Christians believed.Ya, I'm going to Call for References on that one. I've read more Post-Apostolic writing, and Early Church Fathers that back up what was restored through Joseph Smith than disagree with him... and that which disagrees comes later on. So, please, without inserting your own interpretation, show where the restoration is wrong. Please.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.