First Things

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm not sure that people here are aware of the interviews with Elder Bruce D. Porter and Professor Gerald McDermott that appear on the First Things website. They had an exchange in the Oxtober 2008 issue of the magazine on the question "Is Mormonism Christian?"

Iâ??ve listened to Elder Porterâ??s half-hour interview thus far. He represents us well, I think.

http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2008/09/29...nism-christian/

[Uncle Dale]

I'm not sure that people here are aware of the interviews with Elder Bruce D. Porter and Professor Gerald McDermott that appear on the First Things website. They had an exchange in the Oxtober 2008 issue of the magazine on the question "Is Mormonism Christian?"

Iâ??ve listened to Elder Porterâ??s half-hour interview thus far. He represents us well, I think.

http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2008/09/29...nism-christian/

This caught my eye:

Are Mormons Christian? By self-definition and self-identity, unquestionably so. The Church of Jesus Christ

of Latter-day Saints affirms that it is a Christian-faith denomination, a body of believers who worship

Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and who witness that salvation is possible only by his atoning blood

and grace.

By the simple dictionary definition of a Christian as one who believes in or worships Jesus Christ, the

case is compelling. To the title Christian a critic of Mormonism may add any modifiers he deems

appropriateâ??unorthodox, heretical, non-Nicene, differentâ??but blanket assertions that we are not Christian

are a poor substitute for informed argument and dialogue.

I am not entirely certain what is meant by the term "worships Jesus Christ" -- but if it is in the

"dictionary," then I suppose I must abide by that particular standard.

Whether the LDS worship Eloheim or Jehovah has always been something of a mystery to me.

I suppose it all depends upon what is meant by "worship."

At any rate, given such a standard, the LDS are indeed "Christians" (of a certain type).

And I am not. A remarkable fact (to me at least), given my starting point, decades back.

Uncle "I won't drag in Contra Haereses and spoil the soup tonight" Dale

[Avatar4321]

I read both articles. Elder Porter's was pretty good. I would have argued it the same way. The counter argument, however, I found very lacking. It just didnt really seem to be sticking to the point of the discussion. In fact, i read it a couple of times and realized that while there was supposed to be a opposing view that mormons arent Christian, there wasnt any evidence provided. In fact, it didnt even seem to be the point of the article.

[Servant]

worship Jesus Christ as Lord

this makes it sound Jesus as in the Trinity as Orthodox Christians believe....I thought and was taught that LDS believed that the Father was Lord, and Jesus was just simply his Son (a god yes but not THE Lord as the Father) and the Holy Spirit yet another being...

doesnt the LDS worship jesus? well yes but is he considered THE Lord? (orthodox Christians would say yes to this)

[MormonMason]

this makes it sound Jesus as in the Trinity as Orthodox Christians believe....I thought and was taught that LDS believed that the Father was Lord, and Jesus was just simply his Son (a god yes but not THE Lord as the Father) and the Holy Spirit yet another being...

doesnt the LDS worship jesus? well yes but is he considered THE Lord? (orthodox Christians would say yes to this)

You are confusing and conflating our view with that of Jehovah's Witnesses but that is ok. We forgive you.

[Richard]

I am a Catholic Christian, my thoughts might be interesting to you. I do not believe the lds are Christian for the simple fact that the Christian theology is so, so different. Black and white in my view. Especially the Theology of who God is, Mercy and Grace, and the account of the Fall in the Garden. I would be open to talking about this, but I would only answer by using 2000 years of Church teachings, Jesus's words in the New Testament etc...If you owned a 65 Mustang and in two thousand and eight someone showed you a picture of a van and told you this is a 65 Mustang you would know that it was not. Like the New Testament, it is the Church's Diary. Who best could tell another what is in it and what is meant? Or would it be better if someones else took this diary, read it and then told others what they thought it meant? As to Christian worship.......

Worship means surrendering ones life to God in Christ Jesus. Anything else is sin in the sense that we place other things first . Do I do this? Of course I do, mostly by placing myself first, it may be money, my Children, my wife, not being as honest as I should at times, etc..etc..but when I confess my sins to my God and Lord He always gives me a fresh start. I have nothing to hide from Him as He is the doctor of my very soul. I go to Him with open wounds so that He alone can heal them, it is a life time of confessing and healing. By placing Him first through my sincere confessions to Him I find peace and joy. By placing Him first, loving Him above all others I find happiness in the sense that I am more understanding, more patient and forgiving towards those I am around. He has taught me to try and see others the way He see’s them as He loves all the same. If you know that someone you may not like is loved by God just as much as He loves you, you start to see them and life differently.

In Christ

Rich

"HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE AND WORSHIP"

2095 The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity inform and give life to the moral virtues. Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

* Adoration

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the "nothingness of the creature" who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

[johnny]

Daniel Peterson

I'm not sure that people here are aware of the interviews with Elder Bruce D. Porter and Professor Gerald McDermott that appear on the First Things website. They had an exchange in the Oxtober 2008 issue of the magazine on the question "Is Mormonism Christian?" Iâ??ve listened to Elder Porterâ??s half-hour interview thus far. He represents us well, I think.

I find it interesting that you say Bruce Porterâ??s represents Mormon's well when he failed to mention many of the items that Gerald McDermott brought up such as:

• Joseph Smithâ??s teaching of three Gods
  
• Jesus is one of three Gods in the Godhead
  
• Jesus was born of a heavenly mother
  
• the Book of Mormon's teaching of â??after all we can do"
  

I would agree with Bruce Porter that Mormons are Christians as defined in a dictionary.

I would not consider Mormons Christians as defined by the Bible. According to the Bible a Christian is a disciple and a disciples of Christ continues in his words.

The Catholic Church would not consider Mormons Christians either sacramentally or theologically. Theologically because Mormons believe in three Gods and sacramentally because a Mormonâ??s baptism is not consider valid according to the Catholic Church.

[consiglieri]

Thanks for the link. I am listening right now.

I think Elder Porter is doing a good job, but I do have a question about something he said halfway through.

Mormons don't believe there was ever a time when the Son was not? (14:20)

I think this probably leaves a wrong impression.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Immediately after, Elder Porter seems to sort of fumble on the interesting question posed to him about why it is that Mormons pray in the name of the Son only, but the baptism is done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Elder Porter doesn't really answer this, but simply says this is true and tacks on marriage as another example of the three-fold formula.

I sympathize with Elder Porter because I think I have never even heard this question before, but the idea occurred to me (from my cozy armchair position) that there is a difference between prayer to God, which is done in the name of the Son only, and ordinances which are not prayer but exercises of priesthood authority.

Maybe a good segue into priesthood authority could have been made here, which I think most Catholics would "get."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Servant]

You are confusing and conflating our view with that of Jehovah's Witnesses but that is ok. We forgive you.

ok let me get this straight...it has been a long time since I was a mormon...

you guys believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is God? or do you believe that the Father is a god, Jesus is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god

or do you believe that the Father is God and Jesus is just a man, and the holy spirit is just a spirit?

[consiglieri]

(19:20) The host seems gracious in discussing baptism for the dead, and mentioning that it is brought up in the Bible but scholars today don't know what it means; and also says that no trace of the practice survived in traditional Christianity.

At that point, I thought it could have been mentioned that the prayers for the dead may be a survival of the concept if not the exact practice.

I think Catholics might "get" that, too.

Boy, it sure is easy doing these interviews with no pressure!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Servant]

(19:20) The host seems gracious in discussing baptism for the dead, and mentioning that it is brought up in the Bible but scholars today don't know what it means; and also says that no trace of the practice survived in traditional Christianity.

At that point, I thought it could have been mentioned that the prayers for the dead may be a survival of the concept if not the exact practice.

I think Catholics might "get" that, too.

Boy, it sure is easy doing these interviews with no pressure!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

the baptism of the dead was mention only one time in the bible and it doesnt say wither the apostles were for it or against it...all it says was there was a group that it was being done...that is it...it doesnt say the apostles did it...or was for it or against it...

but you know you got a point...the mormons baptize the dead...

the Catholics pray for the dead...which has more scripture to back that up...but yeah i can understand though...what you are saying

[Buckeye]

Consig,

I'm listening too and have had the same exact questions as you.

[consiglieri]

(Around 26:00) I think Elder Porter does a nice job of showing a familiarity with the historical development of Christology in the creeds, and how the Nicene Creed didn't end the controversy; while gently but firmly making it clear that the LDS Church does not accept that part of the Nicene Creed which speaks of the Son being of the same substance with the Father.

I am not sure I would describe BYU religion professors as "trained theologians," though.

I tend to agree with DCP's observation that Mormons don't really "do" theology as much as they tell stories.

[maklelan]

Daniel Peterson

I find it interesting that you say Bruce Porterâ??s represents Mormon's well when he failed to mention many of the items that Gerald McDermott brought up such as:

[*]Joseph Smithâ??s teaching of three Gods

Multiple gods are endorsed by God in the Bible.

[*]Jesus is one of three Gods in the Godhead

That's in the Bible.

[*]Jesus was born of a heavenly mother

His spirit being so born is not precluded by the Bible.

[*]the Book of Mormon's teaching of â??after all we can do"

That's the clear sense I get from the Bible.

I would agree with Bruce Porter that Mormons are Christians as defined in a dictionary.

I would not consider Mormons Christians as defined by the Bible. According to the Bible a Christian is a disciple and a disciples of Christ continues in his words.

We do exactly that. We still have the offices described by Jesus in the Bible, and we haven't changed his gospel.

The Catholic Church would not consider Mormons Christians either sacramentally or theologically. Theologically because Mormons believe in three Gods and sacramentally because a Mormonâ??s baptism is not consider valid according to the Catholic Church.

Who cares what the Catholic Church thinks about this?

[consiglieri]

the baptism of the dead was mention only one time in the bible and it doesnt say wither the apostles were for it or against it...all it says was there was a group that it was being done...that is it...it doesnt say the apostles did it...or was for it or against it...

Based on the Bible alone, I am not sure I would agree with you.

I think we can conclude with some certainty that Paul was not "against it," else he would not have been likely to use it as an argument "for" the resurrection.

We also know from other sources that at least one sect of early Christianity did practice a form of baptism for those who had passed away without hearing the good news preached.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[maklelan]

the baptism of the dead was mention only one time in the bible and it doesnt say wither the apostles were for it or against it...all it says was there was a group that it was being done...that is it...it doesnt say the apostles did it...or was for it or against it...

but you know you got a point...the mormons baptize the dead...

the Catholics pray for the dead...which has more scripture to back that up...but yeah i can understand though...what you are saying

By all means, please supply these scriptures, but also supply the scriptures that condone their method, which is praying for the dead through intermediaries other than Christ.

[Servant]

Based on the Bible alone, I am not sure I would agree with you.

I think we can conclude with some certainty that Paul was not "against it," else he would not have been likely to use it as an argument "for" the resurrection.

We also know from other sources that at least one sect of early Christianity did practice a form of baptism for those who had passed away without hearing the good news preached.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

really show me in the bible where it supports that it is FOR it...as I said you wont find it...you wont find it for it or against it...baptism for the dead is only mentioned once in the bible...if it was for it...it would be talked about over and over like baptism...like the Eucharist...like heaven, like hell is....it isnt for the baptism of the dead...

no where in the Early Church would you find such practice....there was known heretics that you might find doing it...yeah...but why would you want to follow a heretic???

[consiglieri]

the baptism of the dead was mention only one time in the bible and it doesnt say wither the apostles were for it or against it...all it says was there was a group that it was being done...that is it...it doesnt say the apostles did it...or was for it or against it...

but you know you got a point...the mormons baptize the dead...

the Catholics pray for the dead...which has more scripture to back that up...but yeah i can understand though...what you are saying

Dear Servant,

I must have missed the last two paragraphs of your post when I responded, and don't know if you added them when you edited or if it is just too early and I missed it!

Anyway, I appreciate your "getting" the point of the comparison.

I know of one good scripture in the Bible that mentions baptism for the dead, but am unaware of any that mention praying for the dead.

Did you have any in mind?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

really show me in the bible where it supports that it is FOR it...as I said you wont find it...you wont find it for it or against it...baptism for the dead is only mentioned once in the bible...if it was for it...it would be talked about over and over like baptism...like the Eucharist...like heaven, like hell is....it isnt for the baptism of the dead...

no where in the Early Church would you find such practice....there was known heretics that you might find doing it...yeah...but why would you want to follow a heretic???

It is important to distinguish that Mormons do not base their teachings on the Bible. Hence it makes no difference whether it is mentioned once, a hundred times, or not at all.

I think I have more passages mentioning baptism for the dead than you have mentioning cardinals.

And I will wait to see if you actually have any passages mentioning prayers for the dead.

In the meantime, are you able to tell me from the Bible alone those teachings and/or practices that Jesus told his followers were pearls not to be cast before swine?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Servant]

By all means, please supply these scriptures, but also supply the scriptures that condone their method, which is praying for the dead through intermediaries other than Christ.

ok no problem...

2 Tim 1;16-18 Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus

Lk 16;19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers

1 Tim 2;1-7 offer prayers, petitions for all men

rom. 8;35-39 death cannot separate us from Christ.

1 Pet 3;18-20, 4;6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

I can go on if you wish me to?

[Servant]

Dear Servant,

I must have missed the last two paragraphs of your post when I responded, and don't know if you added them when you edited or if it is just too early and I missed it!

Anyway, I appreciate your "getting" the point of the comparison.

I know of one good scripture in the Bible that mentions baptism for the dead, but am unaware of any that mention praying for the dead.

Did you have any in mind?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I editied right when you posted I guess because before i edited you havent responded....

but i do see the comparson....we do take the mentionening of the baptism of the dead as just prayers...for the dead because that one saying doesnt really say it is for it or against it or what not...

you know? so we take it as the prayer for the dead because there is support for that...but either way I get what you are saying

[consiglieri]

Okay, I am finished listening to the interview.

I think that overall it was a very nice job, both by the host and by Elder Porter, who closed on a nice ecumenical note.

Once again, thanks for sharing the link!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

ok no problem...2 Tim 1;16-18 Paul prays for dead friend OnesiphorusLk 16;19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers1 Tim 2;1-7 offer prayers, petitions for all menrom. 8;35-39 death cannot separate us from Christ.1 Pet 3;18-20, 4;6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prisonI can go on if you wish me to?

If you wish to go on, I would only ask that you give me a reference of the living praying for the dead.

The only one of your cites that even purports to do this is 2 Timothy 1:16-18, where you say Paul prays for his dead friend, Onesiphorus, but when I look at the passage, there is nothing in it to indicate that Onesiphorus is dead.

2 Timothy 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

So it looks like the tally is still one for baptism for the dead, and zero for praying for the dead.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consig,I'm listening too and have had the same exact questions as you.

I guess even mediocre minds think alike!

[LDSMusic483]

ok no problem...

2 Tim 1;16-18Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus

Lk 16;19-30 departed rich man intercedes for brothers

1 Tim 2;1-7 offer prayers, petitions for all men

rom. 8;35-39 death cannot separate us from Christ.

1 Pet 3;18-20, 4;6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

I can go on if you wish me to?

2 Tim 1:16-18 - Where do you get that Onesihporus was dead? It never says that? In fact later in 2 Tim, Paul "salutes" his household.

Lk 16: 19-30 - I think a better summary is departed rich man tries and fails to intercede for his brothers. Plus, do Catholics subscribe to praying to the wicked for help?

1 Tim 2:1-7 - That scripture doesn't argue your point very well because it makes no allusion to the dead. All men can be read as for all of those who are living, as it goes on to subscribe to those who can "come unto a knowledge of the truth." Do Catholics believe that one can receive the truth after this life as do the Mormons?

Rom 8: 35-39 - Okay...this scripture has absolutely ZERO to do with praying. It's talking about if anything will cause Christs love to not be extended to us. Basically, come what may...Christ will still love you. Once again, not a scripture that supports/condones praying for the dead.

1 Pet 3:18-20, 4:6 Yes, Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, but you once again failed to show that this means we should pray to or for the dead.

Also, as it were, the original question was not only scriptures that support this practice (which you have clearly not shown) but also "supply the scriptures that condone their method, which is praying for the dead through intermediaries other than Christ."

This nowhere shows that the method of praying through intermediaries other than Christ. I'm not sure if this was ever your intention, but you didn't address it either.

edited for clarity