Elder Packer's Parable Of The Mediator

[consiglieri]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Billy]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Perfection is an obtainable goal. I guess you guys need to try a little bit harder.

[Brade]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think it's a bad representation of what the atonement is and how it works. Besides the obvious problem there's the issue of whether the commandments God is holding everyone accountable to are his own ideas or if he's basing the commandments on something else. If they're his own ideas why are they that way? It seems to make our imprisonment arbitrary since God could have just as easily made the commandments such that we could actually keep them all.

[Lightbearer]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You really do not want to know what I think. But I guess since you have throughly "trashed" Elder Bruce R. McConkie you are now moving on to Elder Boyd K. Packer? That parable is inspired of God and is in our manuals, I have not seen any Prophet or Apostle contradict it. For your enjoyment I will quote the "offending parable" here, it is as quoted in the Gospel Essentials Manual:

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christâ??s atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part.

â??Let me tell you a storyâ??a parable.

â??There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

â??He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

â??So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didnâ??t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

â??The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

â??But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

â??Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

â?? â??I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,â?? he confessed.

â?? â??Then,â?? said the creditor, â??we will exercise the contract, take your possessions and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.â??

â?? â??Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?â?? the debtor begged. â??Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?â??

â??The creditor replied, â??Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?â??

â?? â??I believed in justice when I signed the contract,â?? the debtor said. â??It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.â??

â?? â??It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,â?? the creditor replied. â??That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.â??

â??There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

â?? â??If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,â?? the debtor pleaded.

â?? â??If I do, there will be no justice,â?? was the reply.

â??Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

â??There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extendedâ??but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

â??The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

â?? â??I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.â??

â??As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, â??You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.â??

â??And so the creditor agreed.

â??The mediator turned then to the debtor. â??If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?â??

â?? â??Oh yes, yes,â?? cried the debtor. â??You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.â??

â?? â??Then,â?? said the benefactor, â??you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.â??

â??And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

â??The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfiedâ? (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 79â??80; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54â??55)."

So you can rip it apart and disbelieve it but for over 30 years it has been taught as doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I CFR any disavowals of this parable and it's teachings by any General Authority of the Church, as for anyone else it really does not matter does it?

[emeliza]

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

I think the atonement gives us a chance of repentance. Repentance is one of God's commandments that puts the Atonement into affect. So we can keep all of the commandments if we repent. A little bit of a circle, but nonetheless, that is how it is set up.

[maklelan]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The Parable of the Bicycle is better.

[jwhitlock]

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

I'm not convinced that the reason we're in prison is because we cannot keep all the commandments - even though that is a part of it. That particular item, however, may be reserved for another discussion.

I'm also not convinced that the condition of salvation, as referred to in the parable, is to keep all the commandments of God. The parable seems to indicate that Christ provides the way for us to meet the conditions (not that we have to meet the conditions on our own), which is more consistent with the concept of becoming a candidate for salvation, once we accept Christ. We are then able to, over time, and after this life, to progress to the point of perfection in being obedient.

At least, that's my take on it.

[Flyonthewall]

Sometimes people overthink things. The parable is just fine the way it is and its message is clear.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That we do our best, which is great some day and not so great others. At the end of our lives we will all find ourselves standing at the edge of a great chasm (hope I spelled that right), it is the grace of Jesus Christ which will carry us over. He is a righteous judge, and an able one.

[Billy]

I think the atonement gives us a chance of repentance. Repentance is one of God's commandments that puts the Atonement into affect. So we can keep all of the commandments if we repent. A little bit of a circle, but nonetheless, that is how it is set up.

The fact that you need continual repentance means that you are a commandment breaker, right? I thought that one of the conditions for repentance is that you forsake the sin and keep the commandments, that is how you know that you truly repented correct?

[sean0scott]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'm just glad Dog the bounty hunter didn't appear in the seminary video of this parable.

Maybe I have low standards, but I focus a lot on the usage of the word willing in relation to the covenant we make every week. I just read 2Ne 31 this mornong, and noticed the word pops up there too. I think it's important to recognize that the Lord judges us on our hearts.

Just keep plugging away, I guess; if you get locked up again, just make sure you use your one phone call wisely.

[bluebell]

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I thought the 'condition' that the Mediator (Christ) requires is that He be our debtor, and that we pay Him back under the terms that He sets.

To me, this always implied that the debt is no longer the same as the one that the Mediator paid for us. We still have a debt, but it's a debt that Christ has set, with it's own terms and conditions (things like having a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repentance, etc...).

Still a debt, but no longer a debt to justice, but instead one to mercy-which makes it a 'horse of a different color' so to speak.

So, i really don't see the problem with the parable i guess (other than of course, no parable is perfect when it comes to explaining the Atonement, which seems to be a given).

[Brade]

I thought the 'condition' that the Mediator (Christ) requires is that He be our debtor, and that we pay Him back under the terms that He sets.

To me, this always implied that the debt is no longer the same as the one that the Mediator paid for us. We still have a debt, but it's a debt that Christ has set, with it's own terms and conditions (things like having a broken heart and a contrite spirit, repentance, etc...).

Still a debt, but no longer a debt to justice, but instead one to mercy-which makes it a 'horse of a different color' so to speak.

So, i really don't see the problem with the parable i guess (other than of course, no parable is perfect when it comes to explaining the Atonement, which seems to be a given).

I didn't read the source material of the parable that consig is talking about. Consig, maybe you're misrepresenting the parable.

[bluebell]

The fact that you need continual repentance means that you are a commandment breaker, right? I thought that one of the conditions for repentance is that you forsake the sin and keep the commandments, that is how you know that you truly repented correct?

Actually it is how you feel about the sin, that shows whether or not you've truly repented. The gospel is not a check list where once you've gotten everything marked off then you are 'saved'. It's the condition of our hearts that show us whether or not we have truly accepted Christ, not our level of perfection. The hypocrisy of pretending to repent when the heart has no intention of changing, is what the scriptures speak against.

I didn't read the source material of the parable that consig is talking about. Consig, maybe you're misrepresenting the parable.

Here's the line that i was remembering-â?? â??Then,â?? said the benefactor, â??you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.â??"

[Billy]

Actually it is how you feel about the sin, that shows whether or not you've truly repented.

"Our Father in Heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them.

â??Chapter 14: Repentance,â? Gospel Fundamentals, 67

D and C 58:43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sinsâ??behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

". . .Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works-many works-and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."

Miracle of Forgiveness page 325

"The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: â??We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doâ? (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to â??come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.â? When we deny ourselves â??of all ungodliness,â? then and only â??then is his grace sufficientâ? for us (Moroni 10:32)." Clyde J. Williams, â??Plain and Precious Truths Restored,â? Ensign, Oct 2006, 50â??54

[sean0scott]

"Our Father in Heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them.

â??Chapter 14: Repentance,â? Gospel Fundamentals, 67

D and C 58:43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sinsâ??behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

". . .Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works-many works-and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."

Miracle of Forgiveness page 325

"The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: â??We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doâ? (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to â??come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.â? When we deny ourselves â??of all ungodliness,â? then and only â??then is his grace sufficientâ? for us (Moroni 10:32)." Clyde J. Williams, â??Plain and Precious Truths Restored,â? Ensign, Oct 2006, 50â??54

John 5:14

John 8:3-11

etc.

[consiglieri]

You really do not want to know what I think. But I guess since you have throughly "trashed" Elder Bruce R. McConkie you are now moving on to Elder Boyd K. Packer? That parable is inspired of God and is in our manuals, I have not seen any Prophet or Apostle contradict it. For your enjoyment I will quote the "offending parable" here, it is as quoted in the Gospel Essentials Manual:So you can rip it apart and disbelieve it but for over 30 years it has been taught as doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I CFR any disavowals of this parable and it's teachings by any General Authority of the Church, as for anyone else it really does not matter does it?

Thanks for reprinting the entirety of the parable, LB.

Something that had escaped me is this--how is it mercy when the Mediator pays the debt, but still demands the debt be repaid to him? Isn't that just another form of justice?

Would mercy not consist of the Mediator loving the person enough to pay the debt without asking anything in return?

I am just speaking hypothetically here.

And you can tell me what you think, LB. I really do want to know!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"Our Father in Heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them.

â??Chapter 14: Repentance,â? Gospel Fundamentals, 67

D and C 58:43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sinsâ??behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

". . .Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works-many works-and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."

Miracle of Forgiveness page 325

"The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: â??We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doâ? (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to â??come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.â? When we deny ourselves â??of all ungodliness,â? then and only â??then is his grace sufficientâ? for us (Moroni 10:32)." Clyde J. Williams, â??Plain and Precious Truths Restored,â? Ensign, Oct 2006, 50â??54

Billy...based on previous posts of yours; you don't believe this stuff, so why quote it, what is your angle? Also how do you know where to even find this info...have you ever been a member? We don't find it offensive so if you are trying to make a point, make it.

[consiglieri]

I didn't read the source material of the parable that consig is talking about. Consig, maybe you're misrepresenting the parable.

It could happen, though I am not willfully trying to do so.

I think that if we take the parable as merely an illustration of how mercy and justice separately cannot serve to make both parties whole, but that both can be satisfied if a mediator steps into the picture, it is good.

The problem I have is that, even though the parable is silent on the issue, time after time I encounter Mormons who interpret the parable as meaning that paying the debt to Jesus is the same thing that got us into the predicament in the first place--i.e., not keeping all the commandments of God.

Billy makes a good point--if we are commanded to continue in repentance, does that not itself mean that we must be doing something wrong to be repented of?

I think the only way this parable can make sense is if the debt owed to Jesus is something different than the debt owed to God.

Only if the debt owed to Jesus is something we can actually "pay" does the parable make any sense in this respect.

Because if we had the ability to "pay" the debt in the first instance, we wouldn't need to have Jesus in the picture.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jason]

Something that had escaped me is this--how is it mercy when the Mediator pays the debt, but still demands the debt be repaid to him? Isn't that just another form of justice?Would mercy not consist of the Mediator loving the person enough to pay the debt without asking anything in return?

Mercy cannot rob justice.Yes it might be even more merciful for the Mediator to allow the debt to be completely forgiven without asking anything in return, but the debtor would not have learned his lesson in that case, and the mediator wants the debtor to repay his debt as far as he can because repaying a debt is ultimately better for him than completely forgiving it would be.

I think the only way this parable can make sense is if the debt owed to Jesus is something different than the debt owed to God.

That's pretty much what the parable was saying. The oiginal terms were exact obedience with no mistakes. Jesus' terms include repentence.

[Billy]

Billy...based on previous posts of yours; you don't believe this stuff, so why quote it, what is your angle? Also how do you know where to even find this info...have you ever been a member? We don't find it offensive so if you are trying to make a point, make it.

I was born in the church, seminary, eagle scout, several years at BYU, Mission. But it has been many years since I have gone to the LDS church. I am now an EV Christian.

One of the main points that I try to make on this board is to show that LDS theology and mainstream Christianity are different on almost all apects from each other. The area of works and repentance is just one more example of these differences. Lately the mantra has been that "Just try your best, and Jesus will do the rest." (http://www.mormonwiki.org/Impossible_gospel) But this is not really what the LDS doctrine teaches, it is more a reach for perfection and to keep ALL the commandments, as noted in the ensign 2006 "When we deny ourselves â??of all ungodliness,â? then and only â??then is his grace sufficientâ? for us.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Great thread, consig. I admit to having not read the entire thread yet, but as of late I have taken up an interest in reading about various atonement theories and parables. I want to preface my response, yo, by saying that because I believe the atonement is infinite, I do not fully anticipate (though I hope for) a great understanding of how the atonement actually operates on a metaphysical (and perhaps even theoretical) level, though I enjoy trying to make sense of it. The atonement is so difficult to pin down partly because it reaches into ever aspect of the gospel, as Joseph Smith taught, everything else is a mere appendage to the central fact of Christ's atonement. I take comfort, first and foremost, in believing that one need not fully comprehend the atonement in order for it to be efficacious in one's life. C.S. Lewis said something to the effect of a person not needing to understand the biological process of digestion, etc. in order to be nourished by food.

With that being said, I believe that Pres. Packer's 'Mediator" parable is helpful and fruitful, but also limited and even potentially damaging if understood incorrectly. It can lead to misapplying the atonement. It falls into the "Ransom" or "Satisfaction" atonement theory area. I believe this area can provide useful insight into understanding the atonement in a certain way, but that (like any analogy taken to a higher level) it can easily fall apart.

Geoff over at New Cool Thang (dumb name, great blog) did a quick little write-up on theories. The comments are especially interesting. See "Theories on the Atonement of Christ - An Overview."

Also, see a meta-discussion on the atonement and why it is difficult to discuss at times, here.

Jacob J started an interesting discussion on atonement theory here.

They also discuss Ostler's "Compassion Theory" of the atonement here.

They are very long discussions, but imo, very interesting and fruitful. If anything, I am at the point where I am glad I have felt (and feel) the effects of the atonement, which keeps me going despite the cognitive disconnect. Count me in the camp who believes it is important to try to figure the atonement out, if for anything else to fully appreciate or know how to receive it. However, parables and stories, while flawed, can still be of great service.

Now I'll go read the whole thread.

[Uncertain]

Elder Packer some time ago gave out a parable of his own making in which a person is in prison for not being able to pay his debtor, but a mediator comes to him and offers to buy his way out of jail if only the person will thereafter be obedient to the mediator.

The debtor is God, the Mediator is Jesus, and we are the people in prison.

This parable makes no sense to me as it is usually interpreted.

The reason we are in prison in the first place is because we cannot keep all the commandments of God.

Then Jesus comes and offers to buy our way out of jail. Great!

But what is the condition?

That we have to keep all the commandments of God.

The problem should be obvious.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hi Consiglieri,

I also find this parable a little problematic. If I understand the parable correctly it states the demands of Justice are absolute someone must pay the punishment. As sinners who have broken the law we are given over to Justice. Christ as the mediator takes upon himself the demands of justice and hence frees us the sinner from the punishment we would otherwise experience. This is possible because Christ suffered Justices demands instead of us. As formulated the mediator parable appears to be teaching a version of the atonement called penal substitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution

This theory postulates that Christ suffered for our sins taking the place of us so if we repent we do not have to suffer for the mistakes we inevitable make thereby Christ satisfied the demands of Justice. The classic problem with the penal substitution model is in no way does it appear just for an innocent to take the punishment for someone else.

For example consider a person say Jon sentenced to prison for many years due to various crimes. Jon has a mother who is a complete innocent that deeply loves her child. Jon is very sorry for his crimes and promises not to repeat his mistakes he also attempts to make restitution for his crimes. Suppose the mother out of her love and due to Jons repentant attitude volunteers to take the place of her son and is taken to prison in his stead. It is difficult to see how jailing the mother for many years is justified. Even if the mother volunteers and Jon is sorry how is it justified to punish a complete innocent for someone elseâ??s mistakes? It appears the just course of action would be to jail Jon and/or reduce his sentence. Indeed it is my understanding this is how the justice system currently works. We do not punish the innocent (even if they want to be punished) so the guilty can go free. Similarly Christ is a complete innocent how is it just to punish him for my mistakes even if he volunteers?

All the Best,

Uncertain

[LDSMusic483]

Mercy cannot rob justice.Yes it might be even more merciful for the Mediator to allow the debt to be completely forgiven without asking anything in return, but the debtor would not have learned his lesson in that case, and the mediator wants the debtor to repay his debt as far as he can because repaying a debt is ultimately better for him than completely forgiving it would be.That's pretty much what the parable was saying. The oiginal terms were exact obedience with no mistakes. Jesus' terms include repentence.

I was thinking the same thing. God has a need of not robbing justice. Even though He loves us, when we break a law, He can not just say "forget about it, it's okay." There is a reason that by no other name under heaven than Jesus Christ could we be saved. Does not this include our Father? Christ came and allowed us another chance at the obedience part. Yes, He demands obedience, but the obedience includes striving for perfection through trial and error, repentance and renewing covenants. We will in the end have to obey the commandments, and arrive at a perfect nature. I think the difference is changing it from a necessary regulation that can not be deviated from to a process of progression to arriving at the desired level of righteousness.

[Billy]

Similarly Christ is a complete innocent how is it just to punish him for my mistakes even if he volunteers?

Isn't that the whole point, that Jesus paid the price for OUR sins.

In your example Jon was the one who committed the crime, and if his mother paid the penalty, would it be fair for Jon to also pay the penalty i.e. both pay the penalty for the same crime? No That is the beauty of the sacrifice that Christ did for us, if we do works for our own sins, this takes away from the sacrifice that Christ has paid for us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

"Substitutionary atonement is a doctrine in Christian theology which states that Jesus of Nazareth died â?? intentionally and willingly â?? on the cross as a propitiation, or substitute, for sinners. This doctrine presents Jesus' death as a supreme act of love for mankind, in order to bring people into a relationship with God. It stresses the vicarious nature of the crucifixion as being "instead of us". This vicarious and substitutionary nature of the atonement is expressed in Scripture verses such as "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness," (1 Pet. 2:24) and "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God," (1 Peter 3:18)."