Three-days Of Darkness

[consiglieri]

Some interesting items came up in gospel doctrine class yesterday relating to the destructions among the Nephites prior to the Lord's appearance.

The darkness could be "felt." Not only that, no light or torch or fire could be lit, even with exceedingly fine wood. Not only that, but there were accounts of people being overcome by the darkness and perishing.

These phenomena have been documented as being consistent with a volcanic eruption, with the darkness consisting of fine ash blocking out the sun, preventing the lighting of torches, and the gases emitted from the volcano, being heavier than air, causing those in its path to suffocate.

An egyptologist by the name of Gee also pointed out an ancient Egyptian inscription known as the Tempest Stele which has been correlated to a volcanic eruption, which similarly mentions an unspecified number of days of darkness during which no torch could be lit in either upper or lower Egypt. This happened some time around 1,600 B.C.

How do we account for the presence of these phenomena in a book produced in early 19th century upstate New York?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Aquilifer]

No doubt the Palmyra library contained the descriptions of Vesuvius by Pliny the Younger. [/TIC]

[consiglieri]

No doubt the Palmyra library contained the descriptions of Vesuvius by Pliny the Younger. [/TIC]

No doubt.

But if recollection serves, Pliny's description had nothing in it about the inability to light fire.

Correct me if I am wrong about that.

Of course, the fire coming down upon certain cities and setting them ablaze is suggestive.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[JDave]

I thought about whether it was a volcanic eruption when we talked about this in Sunday School. It seemed good at first, but I wondered how the darkness would last three whole days -- not even a dim sun through the ash -- without enough ash in the air to kill everybody.

[Aquilifer]

No doubt.

But if recollection serves, Pliny's description had nothing in it about the inability to light fire.

Oh, come on, the man was fleeing for his life! There wasn't any time for lighting a fire.

No, Joseph clearly took Pliny's account and embellished it with a couple of details that happen to be accurate.

And who's to say that he relied on Pliny as a source? The disastrous crop of 1816, which forced the Smiths to move to NY, was caused by the eruption of Mt Tambora. No doubt the young Joseph had ample leisure time to study the reports of early volcanologists who wrote of the immense clouds of ash that fell across great swathes of Indonesia.

[selek]

I thought about whether it was a volcanic eruption when we talked about this in Sunday School. It seemed good at first, but I wondered how the darkness would last three whole days -- not even a dim sun through the ash -- without enough ash in the air to kill everybody.

You also need to consider that ash plumes can extend many miles into the air.

It's not merely the surface density that blocks the sun, but also all the ash between you and the upper atmosphere.

Go back and look at the ash falls from Mount St. Helens- a fairly minor eruption as these things go.

[Scottie]

Wouldn't that much ash kill the people as well?

[consiglieri]

Wouldn't that much ash kill the people as well?

Apparently so:

3 Nephi 10:13 And they (the more righteous) were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[selek]

Wouldn't that much ash kill the people as well?

It depends upon how thick the cloud, where it was placed, and a number of other factors.

Certainly, if it were all concentrated at ground level, it would be fatal- as Pompei and Herculaneum discovered.

If the bulk of the ash were suspended a mile or two in the air (and being carried steadily eastward by the jetstream a/o prevailing winds) it could very well have blocked the sun and still not have been immediately fatal.

[Scottie]

It depends upon how thick the cloud, where it was placed, and a number of other factors.

Certainly, if it were all concentrated at ground level, it would be fatal- as Pompei and Herculaneum discovered.

If the bulk of the ash were suspended a mile or two in the air (and being carried steadily eastward by the jetstream a/o prevailing winds) it could very well have blocked the sun and still not have been immediately fatal.

Right, but if it were so thick that a fire couldn't be lit (I assume because of the lack of oxygen?), wouldn't that kill the people?

[thesometimesaint]

Scottie:

Probably not the lack of oxygen itself, though people us far less than any fire. The vapors could well be poisonous, and the ash fall itself could put out fires.

[Scott Lloyd]

It was Bart J. Kowalis, a geology professor at BYU, who suggested some years ago in an article in BYU Studies that the cataclysmic events that beset the Nephites at the time of Christ's death were consistent with intense volcanic actiivity.

I mentioned that in teaching my gospel doctrine class yesterday as well.

I'll try to find a link to Kowallis's article and provide it here, unless someone beats me to it.

Edit:

Here's something from the FARMS newsletter Insights:

http://www.cometozarahemla.org/law-of-witn...in-3-nephi.html

Here's something else from the Maxwell Institute regarding ice-core dating to confirm Kowallis's theory:

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vo...&cat_id=490

Here's a link to Kowallis's BYU Studies article. It appears to be an abstract with a downloadable PDF file link:

http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInf...amp;ProdID=1154

[selek]

Right, but if it were so thick that a fire couldn't be lit (I assume because of the lack of oxygen?), wouldn't that kill the people?

If we're talking solely about ash-fall, then yes. Unfortunately, a volcanic eruption is a much more dynamic event than a mere ash cloud.

As was pointed out earlier, however, there are a number of other gases which could have been present which are heavier than air and will not support combustion.

If the Yellowstone Caldera ever lets go (and don't take this as something to pray for Scottie), it could push a cloud of poison gas (predominantly sulfur, carbon monoxide, and a couple of other nasty things) as far west as Salt Lake City or Boise well in advance of the ash cloud.

While everything east to Cheyenne is probably dead from the gas cloud, the ash plume would cast shadows and block sunlight as far east as New York and Virginia, and ash fall will be recorded in London and Paris.

Remember volcanic plumes tend to suspend much of the ash in the upper atmosphere, where it filters down somewhat slowly and can be carried by the prevailing wind. Extremely fine ash can float in the upper atmosphere for years before it finally settles. Heavier pieces, such as pumice and the like will, of course, rain down much more quickly- hence the fires and what not mentioned in scripture.

They've found fist-sized pieces of the previous eruptions of the Yellowstone Caldera as far west as Oregon and as far east/south as Texas.

In any event- it's not a particularly pleasant way to die (the poison gas is actually the "nicer" part of it). The ash itself is comprised of minute slivers of glass. You get those into the delicate inner passages of your lungs- where they begin cutting you up. Each breath you take compounds the problem and you eventually die choking on your own blood.

Though far too early for our Book of Mormon events, it is demonstrative of what's possible.

[Scottie]

Thanks, Scott and Selek.

Oh, and Selek, since I live in Utah County, I think I won't pray for an eruption anytime soon!!

[selek]

Oh, and Selek, since I live in Utah County, I think I won't pray for an eruption anytime soon!!

Sleep well, buddy .

When I first found this stuff out, it kept me up nights.

[consiglieri]

Sleep well, buddy .

When I first found this stuff out, it kept me up nights.

Well, don't forget that the Book of Mormon has the big destruction scene right before the Savior's visit; and right after the dissolution of the government from internal dissension . . . like what is happening right now on the east coast.

Don't sleep too much.

Somebody may be coming like a thief in the (three-days of) night.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[phaedrus ut]

After 3 days of such volcanic activity everyone gets up in the morning darkness is gone(3 Nephi 10)and apparently nothing is destroyed. The people all go to the temple at Bountiful, hear Jesus read KJV Matthew 5, ignore the ash and destruction around them, have a sacrament with bread and wine, then head to the clean rivers to get baptized?

Is this all consistent with the same volcano scenario?

Phaedrus

// I actually think this is the Galactic Confederacy blowing up aliens tied to volcanoes with hydrogen bombs.

[consiglieri]

After 3 days of such volcanic activity everyone gets up in the morning darkness is gone(3 Nephi 10)and apparently nothing is destroyed. The people all go to the temple at Bountiful, hear Jesus read KJV Matthew 5, ignore the ash and destruction around them, have a sacrament with bread and wine, then head to the clean rivers to get baptized?

Is this all consistent with the same volcano scenario?

Phaedrus

// I actually think this is the Galactic Confederacy blowing up aliens tied to volcanoes with hydrogen bombs.

It seems that Jesus appeared at least 40-days later as he mentions that he first ascended to heaven before showing up in America.

The text also indicates as much as a full year had passed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Larsen]

I'm having trouble finding "volcano" in my Book of Mormon. Could you point me to the right verse again?

[blackstrap]

I wonder what the Mayan ( Quiche,cachikel etc. ) word for volcano is??? I spent some time in Central America and saw volcanos up close,also earthquakes. I saw the barrancos of Guatemala City and wondered if they were the result of some mighty big shakers. I saw the destruction in Antigua from earthquake and volcanic activity.I think such has been going on there for quite some time,however there is Mt St Helens and then there is Krakatoa .Many people just do not understand the difference between an earthquake of 7 and one of 9 .If you are in a 7 it is pretty bad, if you are in a 9 then it will seem like the end of the world as you knew it.

[Cold Steel]

Oh, I'm sure Joseph Smith stumbled onto this information whilst he was researching Nehom....

No biggie.

[Log]

It wasn't the ash which prevented fires - it was carbon dioxide, a component of volcanic eruptions.

Also, CO2 can certainly overpower populations.

[John Larsen]

It wasn't the ash which prevented fires - it was carbon dioxide, a component of volcanic eruptions.

Also, CO2 can certainly overpower populations.

Are you suggesting that the carbon dioxide was high enough to suppress combustion and simultaneously low enough to not be toxic to humans?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I like your new signature. We discussed this at length Sunday...Volcano's that is.

BTW Consig...I think this is a bullseye for BoM.

[charity's child]

Living in the PNW, I remember when St Helens blew her top. For days afterwards Yakima area (IIRC) was engulfed in ash. I recall seeing on the news the camera crew filming. At high noon it was so dark that the lights from the cameras barely penetrated the gloom. You could dimly see lights from cars, if they were very close. That was it. There is no way they could have lit a match. The people mostly survived (although everyone went around wearing dust masks), but the darkness was complete. Only modern electricity could combat it and even that couldn't defeat it. So yes, you can have clouds of ash that hang around for three days, block sunlight, prevent the lighting of a fire, and people can survive although the ill and infirm are likely to die.