God: The Ultimate Author Of Evil?

[LifeOnaPlate]

cksalmon once said:

The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that God is the ultimate author of evil.

I believe it is illogical to reject or attempt to palliate this fact.

Some folks feel they need to deny this clear teaching (because it is unnerving); others find they must reject belief in a god who would allow/condone/decree evil (because it is unpalatable); still others believe that a sovereign God does whatever he wishes in the heavens and the earth. And that everything he does is for his own glory and good pleasure.

It seems to me a small swipe at Mormons who assert that they are uncomfortable with a God who "for his own glory and good pleasure" allows a small child to be raped and murdered that they do so because such a thing is "unnerving." Thus, somehow, it is their fault for being disgusted by such an act. CK, you almost sound like there is something wrong with finding God abhorrent if this is his doing. But I guess we could claim that we Mormons only think so because God is making us.

ps- I disagree that such a notion is "clearly and repeatedly" taught in the Bible.

[LifeOnaPlate]

pps- mods, please correct my thread title typo to God, not "Gaod."

[Rommelator]

The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that God is the ultimate author of evil.

1. Evidence?

2. Then how can he be a holy God?

[LifeOnaPlate]

1. Evidence?

2. Then how can he be a holy God?

Because the Bible says so.

Because the Bible says so.

[BCSpace]

How does allowing evil make one the author of it?

[LifeOnaPlate]

How does allowing evil make one the author of it?

Ask the Bible?

[JDave]

Ask the Bible?

Really not sure what you're looking for in the OP...

God is not the ultimate author of evil, and the Bible doesn't say that He is. The Bible says that God created everything, but does anyone believe that God created Himself?? If God isn't a part of everything, then is He nothing? So just because the scriptures say God created everything, doesn't mean we have to go all out and imagine some omnipotent Being inside of a void thinking to Himself -- "I'm so bored.... I think I'll create good and evil...and maybe some dogs and cats..."

P.S. Can something be 'inside' of a void?

P.P.S. If this is your honest view of God, minus my blasphemous characterizations, I sincerely apologize. I would sincerely follow that with an honest question : "What is an omnipotent God doing in a void?" My lack of understanding here will hopefully smooth over any hurt feelings.

[jadams_4242]

cksalmon once said:

It seems to me a small swipe at Mormons who assert that they are uncomfortable with a God who "for his own glory and good pleasure" allows a small child to be raped and murdered that they do so because such a thing is "unnerving." Thus, somehow, it is their fault for being disgusted by such an act. CK, you almost sound like there is something wrong with finding God abhorrent if this is his doing. But I guess we could claim that we Mormons only think so because God is making us.

ps- I disagree that such a notion is "clearly and repeatedly" taught in the Bible.

I beleive its called "free agency" he gave us; he does not cause evil.

[Log]

I can only assume CKS would hold to something like the following:

• God created all that is from utter non-being.
  
• God foreknew the consequences of his actions eternally.
  
• God created Satan.
  
• Therefore God knowingly created evil.
  

[consiglieri]

On behalf of CKSalmon, who has yet to make his presence known on this thread, I will say that he should be commended for unflinchingly following his theology to its logical conclusions.

He understands what he believes, comprehends the consequences, and embraces the outcome.

How many other Christians do you know who do the same?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

pps- mods, please correct my thread title typo to God, not "Gaod."

I was wondering who "Gaod" was?

[consiglieri]

I was wondering who "Gaod" was?

"Gaod" is the supreme being as pronounced by Joseph Fielding McConkie.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Chronos]

Fixed.

[LifeOnaPlate]

On behalf of CKSalmon, who has yet to make his presence known on this thread, I will say that he should be commended for unflinchingly following his theology to its logical conclusions.He understands what he believes, comprehends the consequences, and embraces the outcome.How many other Christians do you know who do the same?All the Best!--Consiglieri

Undoubtedly, I agree. And a big kudos for that. Now I would be interested if he would demonstrate his thoughts from the Bible.Also I wonder if anyone here agrees with CK.

[Kiviuq]

â??I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.â? (Isaiah 45:7)

â??Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.â? (1 Kings 22:23)

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.â? (2 Sam 12:11-12)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"Gaod" is the supreme being as pronounced by Joseph Fielding McConkie.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I could even hear that when I read your post...but in all fairness he got it from Dad.

[sleepyhead]

â??I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.â? (Isaiah 45:7)

â??Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.â? (1 Kings 22:23)

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.â? (2 Sam 12:11-12)

Hello,

If one accepts reincarnation as a fact then all of God's actions, while they may appear harsh, can be seen as correcting a problem rather than punishing just for the sake of punishing.

[LifeOnaPlate]

â??I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.â? (Isaiah 45:7)

The word "evil" here in Hebrew, if I understand correctly, reflects calamity or troubles rather than "evil" as we understand it. Still, that indicates God either directly or indirectly allows or creates problems. Why?

[consiglieri]

I could even hear that when I read your post...but in all fairness he got it from Dad.

I remember hearing Joseph Fielding speak at Education Week back in 1994, and remarking to the person next to me that he was the only person I knew who could make "God" into a three-syllable word.

Phonetically, I think it was, "Gay-Ah-ohd."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johndoe]

I can only assume CKS would hold to something like the following:

• God created all that is from utter non-being.
  
• God foreknew the consequences of his actions eternally.
  
• God created Satan.
  
• Therefore God knowingly created evil.
  

I think this is correct. Even if the Bible were completely silent on whether God creates/allows/is responsible for evil, Chris could argue that he derives his assumptions of God as ultimate First Cause and creator ex-nihilo, as well as denial of the existence of anything like libertarian free will, from the Bible, and the conclusion that God is the ultimate author of evil flows naturally from them.

[Deborah]

I do not believe God it the author of evil and to suggest the Bible says this is misinterpreting the scriptures. I do believe God understands evil and its consequences. He also understands agency and the importance of maintaining it even to the point of allowing evil. The goal for God of course is to help us all reach the point where we ourselves will have no inclination to do evil and thereby bind those who follow evil from having any power or influence.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think his argument for God is deeply rooted in creatio ex nihilo, as well.

[jwhitlock]

I think his argument for God is deeply rooted in creatio ex nihilo, as well.

It has to be.

If you rationally follow CEN to its logical conclusion, God is ultimately responsible for absolutely everything, including outcomes.

The only argument I have ever seem made to try to explain this is that God, in effect, "rolled the dice" in creating us, creating us as agents to ourselves. The problem with this, however, is that when an all-powerful God who has created everything from nothing is taken into account, random chance cannot be rationally explained to exist for such a being. There can be no "rolling of the dice" because the outcomes are known beforehand. God is still ultimately responsible for all outcomes.

On the other hand, when we understand that a part of humans ("intelligence", per LDS doctrine) has existed forever, uncreated, and that God organizes the intelligences and empowers them to act on their own, then we - not God - become fully responsible for our own outcomes. God has created an opportunity and the results are dependent on our choices.

I see this as a basic philosophical difference. Perhaps it can truly be said that all Christians are, in effect, strict Calvinists if they hold to CEN, because of the rationale I have noted above.

[Jason]

The word "evil" here in Hebrew, if I understand correctly, reflects calamity or troubles rather than "evil" as we understand it. Still, that indicates God either directly or indirectly allows or creates problems. Why?

I agree that the term used here is for calamity or troubles rather than "evil".Why does God directly or inderectly allow or cause calamity? Because we often need calamity to take us down a peg or two and give us another chance to look to God.Everyone will do some measure of evil in their lives.Are you therefore guilty for creating the evil that your children will do during their lifespan? You created your children.

Is evil something that can be created, or is it rather the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light?

[JDave]

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Belay me prior statement that the Bible be not sayin' such a thing. Aye, what a shame I have brought on t' me-self.

On the subject of ex-nihilo creation, if one believes that God created EVERYTHING, then again -- what was God doin' in a void?

And if God didn' create evil, then surely he didn' create good neither, since good is inherently a measure of somethin' -- evil bein' when it be in short supply.